Would you consider such a person frum?

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:17 am

shayna82 wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

and the worst thing you can do to non frum relatives is make yourself look better than them. it IS about peoples feelings. what is being jewish all about then, if people are constantly looking down on others?

so better eat their pork than embarass them and tell then pork isnt kosher?

I would never say- sorry, nope- cant eat in your house. I have non kosher grandparents, (no pork, but just not kosher- not kosher cheese...) and every time we are there we have our own pots and stuff, and they WANT us to eat by them, so if this is what makes us comfortable, and we can all sit at the table together, then thats what matters. and there are no hard feelings, because we handled it like mentches. with no holier than though attitude, and no fighting and no rolling eyes.

peoples feelings do matter.

sometimes, people who consider themselves to be shomrei mitzvos but arent are much harder to get on with in terms of things like this, because I did the exact same thing you did and got my head bitten off. (our own pots, cooking our own food, but still getting together as a family.)

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:18 am

Seraph wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Someone who is a baalas teshuva gets their past erased... As far as what I currently know about you, if you would cook with the hechsherim I keep when I'm at your place, I would probably eat your food. (Unless you're telling me that you and your husband spouse swap with another couple.)

Exactly. When I have people over who have certain restrictions, I will try to make sure that everything I serve has a hechsher that would be at their standards, so they're not in a position of unknowingly eating something they ordinarily would avoid, just for the sake of politeness. If they're so restrictive that I can't cook food that would be acceptable, I accept that with no hard feelings. For instance, if somebody won't eat my food because of me cooking (in my pots and pans) food they wouldn't eat, then there's nothing I can do to make my home acceptable. So we go out, or we don't eat together. It doesn't have to be negative. For instance, before I married my husband and starting keeping kosher for Pesach, my friend A. used to come over anyway, and she'd bring a grapefruit in her bag. No friendships need to be affected by religious differences.

By the way, I'm not a BT, so my past has not been erased. If that makes my food unacceptable to someone, that's okay. They can pick up a cup of coffee outside and still sit in my living room. I'll even let them bring in cookies for both of us!

I know you don't define yourself as a BT, but you still are. Anyone who no longer does what aveira they did in the past is called a BT, at least in terms of past getting erased.

Shayna and greenfire, while being a mentch and ve'ahavta lereacha kamocha are important, when it comes down to a) keep kashrus and offend someone b) eat something not kosher as to not offend someone, I'd go with choice A. Of course, if you can choose choice c)keep kashrus and dont offend anyone, thats even better, but sometimes its not possible.

There are leniencies for situations when it's a choice between a and b, but of course they have limits...

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:19 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

no I actually think its is a real person she is talking about. she noted that she is asking for a specific reason...

Ok, lets put it this way.
This is a very real person I'm talking about. Its a non issue because she lives in the house with someone who my rav said is considered not trustworthy kashruswise, so I AM NOT ALLOWED to eat in her house what was in her pots, because she uses pots my rav considers treif.
However, I'm curious in theory what someone else would do.

About what you consider frum, and all.
My husband considers only chareidi people "frum" as he thinks frum means chareidi (meaning he still considers other people religious, but not with the title "frum"), but my definition of frum is a little more broad, including all people shomrei mitzvos. so I wasnt sure if describing this person I'd say "she's a frum girl", because is she frum? can someone not ashamed about doing aveiros be considered frum?

So invite her over to your house instead. Problem solved.

I dont invite her over to my house for whatever reason. but if I did, I'd have this exact issue. is she considered frum? and of course, I'd ask a rav should it come up, but it hasnt yet.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:20 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

no I actually think its is a real person she is talking about. she noted that she is asking for a specific reason...

So invite her over to your house instead. Problem solved.

Not solved. She'll want to invite back.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:22 am

Seraph wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

So invite her over to your house instead. Problem solved.

I dont invite her over to my house for whatever reason. but if I did, I'd have this exact issue. is she considered frum? and of course, I'd ask a rav should it come up, but it hasnt yet.

So basically what you're asking is "Can I associate with people who are not Hashkafically cookie-cutter like me?"

Last edited by BeershevaBubby on Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total

gamekeeper

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:22 am

shayna82 wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

so better eat their pork than embarass them and tell then pork isnt kosher?

we have similar situation, where they think that they are kosher but... well lets just say that quiet a few non kosher items are generally found in their fridge... what we sometimes is a bbq- I come early with our bbq as its 'bigger' bla bla and they buy the meat (they ask us where) and I make the bbq! other wise I cook a main and let them bring sides- be it baggles (bought) or ready made salads also bought... let them feel like they are the ones entertaining and im just helping... oh! and as far as cutlery and crockery- I suggested disposables so they dont get stuck with a million dishes after everyone has gone home-they think im a genius! and no one is the wiser!

DefyGravity

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:24 am

Clarissa wrote:

tovarena wrote:

Regardless of whether someone would live with their boyfriend, the fact that she eats out treif would seem, to me, to be reason not to accept her kashrus.

Why? If she's fully aware of the laws of kashrut but eats certain things out at restaurants (carefully chosen) it doesn't mean she isn't perfectly capable of preparing a kosher meal, if she's provided with kosher implements and ingredients.

The woman is Jewish. She considers herself observant. If she's knowledgeable in the laws of kashrut, what's the problem?

Unless we're talking about a bad person who would plot to treif up other peoples' food deliberately (mental illness or part of an evil, grand design to undermine the Jewish world) what's the concern?

Because oftentimes if you're not careful about what you eat out, you're not going to be very careful about how you prepare the food.

Just based on personal experience, I see how it can be extremely problematic.

I have a friend that will eat vegetarian food out. Supposedly she keeps strict kosher in the home, but she constantly purchases non-kosher food by mistake. Nearly everytime I open up her fridge, I find something that should not be in there.

Sure, maybe not everyone that eats out and keeps a Kosher home is like this, but I'd have my doubts.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:37 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

I missed the part about the problems of having her over yoru house??

I thought, misunderstood, that she was saying "well then if she cooks by your house with your ingredients, problem solved."

It is. If she's cooking at your house with your pots and your ingredients, you turn on the stove and the oven and then problem solved.

However I was referring that time to inviting her over to your house for a meal you cooked.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:51 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

I missed the part about the problems of having her over yoru house??

I thought, misunderstood, that she was saying "well then if she cooks by your house with your ingredients, problem solved."

right, thats not a problem. however, I wasnt asking how to solve such a problem. I was asking if you'd consider such a person frum, with all it entails.

greenfire

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:54 am

Seraph wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

I missed the part about the problems of having her over yoru house??

I thought, misunderstood, that she was saying "well then if she cooks by your house with your ingredients, problem solved."

right, thats not a problem. however, I wasnt asking how to solve such a problem. I was asking if you'd consider such a person frum, with all it entails.

you don't have to worry about a person's frumkeit - that is between her & god !!!

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:54 am

Seraph wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

I missed the part about the problems of having her over yoru house??

I thought, misunderstood, that she was saying "well then if she cooks by your house with your ingredients, problem solved."

right, thats not a problem. however, I wasnt asking how to solve such a problem. I was asking if you'd consider such a person frum, with all it entails.

It's not my business to rate other people's frumkeit. I'd welcome them in my home and I'd go to their's with certain caveats. End of story.

princessleah

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:00 am

Deciding whether or not she is "frum" is starting to just sound like a semantics argument. As we saw from previous posts, everyone has their own definition.

I think it's generally accepted that bein adam l'chavero trumps bein adam l'makom. But to what extent? Is being dan lekaf zechut of a person who knows you keep kosher better than embarrasing/insulting somone? (I'm asking)

Whenever you eat somewhere other than your own house, you are assuming some risk. Even at restaurants and hotels, there are always kulot in place regarding bishul akum. The best you can do is find someone you trust and hope for the best. I once made a kugel using "non-dairy" creamer and only the next day I realized it had an OU-D on it!!! I was so horrified-- I had served it WITH the chicken and basically treifed up a lot of stuff. But it was b'shogeg, and regardless, it was my aveira, and not the guests. So has long as you have reason to believe the person keeps kosher, even if they "decieve" you with non-kosher products, it is on them, not you.

And if we are equating violating the Torah b'farhesia with an inability to be considered kosher, than I have some choice words about a certain kosher meat company....

gryp

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:52 am

Seraph, I know you said the situation is theoretical but I can't even think of how this scenario would come into play practically, so what's the question? You're never forced into eating food of someone you don't trust. There's always your own food or takeout.
Once I saw a cook heading back to the kitchen straight from the bathroom without washing her hands. Since then, I don't eat most food out there. I know what's in my own food and I think that's best.

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:54 am

GR wrote:

You wouldn't believe how many people never wash their hands in the bathroom. The NY Times did an informal check on this at an airport bathroom, and 70% didn't. Also, if most people could hang in a restaurant kitchen, they'd never, ever eat there. Some things I just don't want to know.

daamom

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:01 am

GR wrote:

I'm assuming there was no sink in the bathroom Wink

I could tell you a couple of horror stories in this area... I've never worked in the industry, but I've heard and seen enough (like the time my husband was brought a dish at a restaurant, and was approached by a waiter AFTER he began eating it, who said that it wasn't the dish he had ordered, it was someone else's - and then proceeded to take the dish straight to it's rightful owner shock

)
to make me wary.