Jewish Geography Ettiquette

Fox

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 11:16 am

chillax wrote:

I do understand all the sides here, but it also seems to be an issue of being overly insecure. I get that you don't ant it to become your "identity" but I also don't see that it's such a big deal if someone asks...and if they do you say yes and then what? Oh ok that's cool. There's nothing to be ashamed of (and that's the feeling I'm getting).

In certain segments of the frum world, there is significant discrimination based on yichus or lack thereof. Some of it is based on ignorance; some of it is based on discomfort; some of it is based on plain ol' bad middos and the desire to be part of an "elite". Sometimes, unfortunately, the offender has had a specific negative experience that shaped his/her view.

It would be wonderful if we lived in a world in which yichus and "Jewish geography" played only a small supporting role in determining how people perceive one another, but that is often not the case. Many people, whether they are BTs, gerim, or simply grew up in a different kind of community, prefer not to subject their children to such prejudices.

I will say, though, that I've noticed during my life that midda keneged midda often operates very openly with individuals who behave unkindly to the stranger who dwells among us. I won't go into tiresome anecdotes; I'm sure many imamothers could fill their own books with such stories. Let's just say that there seems to be plenty of punishment for such behavior here in olam hazeh, let alone olam haba.

Raisin

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 11:27 am

interesting...I might have my own prejudices about someone from an ffb brooklyn family (won't say them here because I don't want to insult any ffb brooklynites). I have probably more positive perceptions about bts or geirim. but, thats just me. No doubt I am wrong and there really is something better about ffbs. for the life of me I haven't discovered it yet.

amother

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

Inspired wrote:

willow wrote:

I don't think in any community I have ever belonged to (from both ends of the spectrum) BT's are ever looked down upon. I think it has to do with the individual own insecurity.

It is not necessarily looking down, but looking sideways, or crosseyd. Not that they are less than, just something else, not one of "us". This isn't my insecurity talking, I'm not a bt, I grew up within the frum community and it is true that there is a divide between the ffbs and bts to an extant.

I became frum quite young. What cracks me up is that the minute an FFB finds out I'm "BT" it's like suddenly I went from being the rebbetzin they knew and respected to wondering if I know alef-beis. I seriously had someone wonder how I could possibly be a teacher in a Jewish school b/c "how did I have anything to teach?" Uh - duh! I went to seminary too you know.

Same here. Which is why I try my best to hide my background.

Raisin

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 11:31 am

Fox wrote:

One additional issue: not every posek agrees that a non-observant Jew in our generation has the status of tinok shenishba. So while certainly the majority of communities are relatively welcoming to BTs, one should never assume that to be the case.

so a person should never attempt to become frum, he or she is doomed anyway?

Fox

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 11:50 am

Raisin wrote:

Fox wrote:

so a person should never attempt to become frum, he or she is doomed anyway?

Well, it's not the "majority opinion", but even those talmidei chachamim who do believe that a non-observant Jew in our generation has the status of a tinok shenishba generally respect the opposite opinion. In other words, it's considered a legitimate application of halacha.

I mention it only because many BTs are unaware of this issue and may be unpleasantly surprised to find that their backgrounds might be considered a serious blemish in some communities.

levial

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 12:23 pm

A few thoughts. When this happens to me, I nip it in the bud. Call it out. When I was first married, I would go home MAD that I was interrogated. Now I'm older and naughtier and I don't stand for it.

"What was your maiden name?"
(Answer)
"Did you go to BY school? " (choose one:)
A.) 'Whoa, where's your interrogation light? (big ironic smile) I'm not going to let you off light- get to know me and tell me nothing ha ha....nu, so how long have you lived here? (let her answer without breath, ask) And what was your maiden name? (She answers) Ah. Nope. Doesn't ring a bell... say, I am new here, can you introduce me to some (insert appropriate group ; singles, young married couples, young married couples with children)...I'd really appreciate it."
B.) Oh, it's been so long, honey, I forget what my natural haircolor looks like much less what school I went to...why did you go to BY?
C.) Did you know the Cohen's? (or Levy's) - (cruel, I know, but a safe bet to redirect if desperate).
D.) Oh, don't let me forget- I'll tell my husband I met someone and he won't know you because what happens on that side of the mechitza is different. Which man is your husband? What's his name? Ah, what does he do? ....You get the picture.

I also use a technique from work- having your elevator speech that ends with a question. If I volunteer the info, and I configure the sentences, the natural questions evolve from the last thing I said:
"We just moved here from (state). My husband and I are looking forward to meeting new couples with kids my daughter's age - she's 3. Have you lived here/gone to shul here/ long? Who can you introduce me to that has kids my daughter's age (focus her attention on a favor).

Imaonwheels

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 12:31 pm

Let me understand. There are those who think that we chose to be frei? That after 4 generations frei in the US I could have decided to be frum from birth? That we were taught Torah and rejected it?

I once went somewhere with a woman in a car who announced that anyone who committed x sin could never do teshuva. Not being the shy type I told her truthfully that I had done x many times so is my teshuva fake? She answered that rabbi y on the radio said that such a person can never do teshuva so that is daas Torah. Again I asked her what she thought I should do then. Her cognitive dissonance was so strong that she started to argue with me about what I had done in the past. Because I did teshuva I couldn't have done x.

I think this is one question that the answer has been made crystal clear in our generation. The people who criticized kiruv a generation ago are very active in it today. There is a Satmar yeshiva for BTs in Yerushalayim.

tovarena

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 3:37 pm

DefyGravity wrote:

I don't understand why you can't play Jewish Geography with BT's and people that converted. There's still the possibility that they know people that you know. Especially since they're religious now.

I'm a BT and enjoy playing Jewish Geography with people. I went to a BY (a dorm one at that, with girls from all over the country/world), a couple of BY conventions, and seminary. I've always considered myself pretty much an open book and answer people's questions openly and completely. I have no problem with my background. And if others do...well, I guess I've always just figured that's the way the world works and I'll just choose to associate with those that don't have a problem with me and my background. I may feel differently when my kids are in school or are ready for shidduchim, but even then I don't think so.

BUT...I can certainly understand why other BTs/gerim could easily feel that after the first few questions, people are asking to pry - either because, "Wow, cool!" curiosity type-response. Or because of some pre-conceived notion/fear of "other". The handful of times I've experienced what I'll call "BT bigotry" (and those were not a result of the "interrogation"/Jewish Geography game), they were pretty startling, abrupt experiences. In my case, I've just chosen to make my place within the Jewish world in a place just doesn't have that issues (not to say it's perfect - it's just that THIS issue isn't a problem). But I can certainly see where if I had chosen to be part of a different segment of the frum world I might choose to be a bit more discriminating about who I tell too many details to.

GAMZu

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 10:31 pm

STOP IT WITH THE "INSECURITY" LINE ALREADY!!

You know, I went to a kiruv camp, first as a camper and eventually as a staff member. As in many camps, we had another one visit ours. You should have seen it. All the visiting girls (11th graders) talked s--l--o--w--l--y and LOUDLY to our campers. " Very Happy

WOULD...YOU...LIKE...TO...COLOR... Very Happy

" Type. With huge fake smiles plastered all over their faces. Like we were idiots of some sort. Yeah, you need to be NICE to us and pretend to LOVE us. Just make sure you speak loudly and slowly.

We even had some (BT) staff members do a shtick every year: They'd dress up in mismatched clothes, put on some ugly bead necklaces, put their hair in messy pigtails and talk as if they were 7 years old. This was kinda like a backlash "joke's on you" type of thing, because we really felt like they were treating us like some weird, not-all-there people they have to humor and show them how sweet and kind and fun frum people are.

Of course, not all people are like that.
But you know, being called "the Russian kid" by the secretary in school isn't my insecurity shining through.
I don't want to gnash my teeth in anger every time someone makes a stupid assumption or gives me a stupid label. I don't want to be treated differently because of who I was. B"H my circle of friends and acquaintances do not make me feel one iota different for being who I am. Besides the next-door neighbor who asked me if my mother is my [gentile woman]. Rolling Eyes

And when I said it's my mother, she asked, "She doesn't cover her hair?" (No, it's just an illusion. Mad

)

Last edited by GAMZu on Mon, Dec 08 2008, 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

avigailmiriam

Mon, Dec 08 2008, 10:39 pm

GAMZu wrote:

STOP IT WITH THE "INSECURITY" LINE ALREADY!!

You know, I went to a kiruv camp, first as a camper and eventually as a staff member. As in many camps, we had another one visit ours. You should have seen it. All the visiting girls (11th graders) talked s--l--o--w--l--y and LOUDLY to our campers. " Very Happy

WOULD...YOU...LIKE...TO...COLOR... Very Happy

And when I said it's my mother, she asked, "She doesn't cover her hair?" (No, it's just an illusion. Mad

)

What she said... Thumbs Up

GAMZu

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 12:11 am

Either I'm blessed with especially tactless people that I'm forced to interact with, or I am just more sensitive. LOL

(I know my close friend had the same experiences as me and was never bothered much at all. I would be driving myself crazy trying to understand how she can take all this condescending behavior so lightly, but I guess she is easy going like that. She only sees good in people and I'm more angry when she suffers an injustice than she is.)

mamacita

Tue, Dec 09 2008, 5:59 am

Ladies, you've given me some great ideas! Not only am I from OOT, gasp, I have an unusual last name, and my maiden name is unusual too. Well, my maiden name is quite common outside of Brooklyn Tongue Out

So I am from now on (bli neder) just answering the maiden name question with, "it's such a common name, <<change>>" bleh

And no I don't know your family/friend who is also from OOT but a million miles away from where I lived. OOT is a big place :roll