Woman giving birth to her 18th Child

Clarissa

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 10:05 am

I don't recall saying it was bad to give responsibility to children. I said I didn't like the idea of having older children basically raise their siblings, because the parents are so overburdened with all of the children.

And I said that it's very possible we disagree.

I don't think it's going to be useful to argue about giving kids responsibility, since it wasn't even the issue.

As far as kids being little "mommies," are we talking about boys, as well as girls? And if a child's natural inclination isn't to be a "little mommy," is he or she released from the job? I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be one, as a kid.

bandcm

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 10:30 am

octopus wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I've never watched any show about the Duggars, either. At any rate, I guess some of us will disagree about the Duggars and childrearing and blanket training and older children raising younger children and whatever else is involved in their story. Which isn't surprising, right?

I never said it is right for older children to raise younger children, nor did I say blanket training was okay either. While parents shouldn't overburden children (THAT is wrong) there is nothing wrong with giving older children responsibilities.

From what I remember about this family, once a new baby is born, one of the older girls gets that child as her responsibility. She has to get up in the middle of the night to bottle feed the baby, etc.
That is very unhealthy. No large family in our world has this system. My parents have eleven children (and my aunts and uncles have fifteen, thirteen, twelve, etc.), and these mothers and fathers recognize that they brought the baby into the world, they have to deal with it. Kids can help out here and there, but not Duggar-style.

Raisin

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 10:53 am

Clarissa wrote:

there is a golden medium between raising slaves or making yourself a slave to your kids.

gryp

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 11:12 am

bandcm wrote:

octopus wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I think that's pretty nuts too.

Mama Bear

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 11:18 am

I just checked out Josh duggar's web site. very interesting how he met his wife. They run a used car dealership together, I beleive they were both pretty much virgins, and they got married quite young and had a simple wedding. If all the children follow in their footsteps, they'll have raised their kids right and be a real success story.
www.ja20.com

My point is that there are plenty of frum families with more than 12 kids, they have INSANE expenses, their house isnt half as big, and they manage, and theyre not a TV show...

My in laws have 12 kids KE"H and they managed to marry off 9 of them so far without incurring major debts. My MIL is such an amazing penny pincher, she can stretch a dollar into 10, SHE would make an awesome TV show. Yeah, sure. Smile

NativeMom

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 3:36 pm

I watch their show on TLC every once in a while. They built their house, I started watching it when they were building it. Its amazing, very big but it only has 3 bedrooms! The girls and boys share a room.

Raisin

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 5:04 pm

NativeMom wrote:

see, thats interesting because I know a frum family who also have 18 (or 17) kids. They also had a tv show made, but I don't think they got money from it!

But one of the kids told me they have a big house with lots and lots of tiny bedrooms, so each kid had their own space. Also they were not homeschooled, and their mother sounds like a complete ball of energy. She runs her own business, serves home cooked meals that are ready when the kids get home from school, and even caters their own simchos. Oh, and apparantly she still finds time to take a walk with her husband every night. She's yeminite though, you can't compete!

DefyGravity

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 5:22 pm

soldat wrote:

not impressed. what's the big deal with a house that size?

It's impressive that they built a large part of the house themselves. They purchased a steel house kit, and did a lot of the work themselves.

Whether you find them impressive or not, a lot of people love to hate them, or love to love them, and that's why they're one of the most popular shows on TLC. Same reason why people like watching Jon and Kate plus 8.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 6:47 pm

If you watch the old Duggar TV specials, like 14 children and pregnant again, all the kids are dressed in matching. They no longer are and the girls now wear clothing that I would often contemplate wearing, like denim skirts and tops. I'm assuming that as their girls got older, they staged a small rebellion, because now they all dress differently, though still modestly.

The Duggars are very open about being debt-free and on no assistance but... They are a huge, huge, HUGE cause in evangelical circles. DH and I have lived in Evangelical Chriztian territory for most of our lives, and several times, we've seen local churches hold fundraising drives to support the Duggars in their mission. They're also part of a social movement called Quiverfull, and many Quiverfull families run businesses and offer their services at a reduced rate to other Quiverfull families. They are also paid by TLC for their work doing shows, including their current reality show, 17 and Counting. These days, they make most of their money doing lectures, parenting seminars and running deft free living seminars. I have a friend who won a ticket to a Duggar parenting seminar where they described blanket training and it is exactly what Clarissa describes.

chavamom

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 8:04 pm

I read on another board that while she may be a role model for "quiverful" mothers, really she isn't b/c she actively tries to get pregnant. She weans the baby at 5 mos in order to get pregnant again. As it was described there, "quiverful" philosophy is that you don't plan one way or another - that includes such plans to try and get pregnant - you just allow G-d to "plan your family". Interesting to see that there is criticism from that wing too.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 8:13 pm

chavamom wrote:

Interesting. Generally, people with big families don't weird me out. The Duggars really, really do.

Mama Bear

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 10:23 pm

So in essence, frum Jewish families who dont do birth control, are also 'Quiverfull', huh?

btw - I have a much easier alternative to 'blanket training' - get a pack & play! or a high chair! or an exersaucer! there are much easier ways to confine a toddler than to scare them off at a young age with a switch!

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 21 2008, 10:28 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Pretty much. But many of the quiverful articles I see have an undertone of "the minorities are taking over America/the world and we must outbreed them!" This desire to Aryanize the gene pool seems to be, how do I put it, a bit less of a motivation for frum people.

I should also point out that Quiverfullers are generally against BC in any and all circumstances short of saving a mother's life. I don't think that view is as common in the frum world.

Raisin

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 5:41 am

[quote="avigailmiriam"]

Mama Bear wrote:

I should also point out that Quiverfullers are generally against BC in any and all circumstances short of saving a mother's life. I don't think that view is as common in the frum world.

Plenty of frum people think like that. but of course, that includes the mental health of the mother, not just physical.

Chocoholic

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 7:43 am

Well of course they do get money for their show and I think the producers also give them a lot of things... gift cards to shop clothes for the older girls perhaps, clothes for the rest of the family, things for the baby, holiday presents, appliances, food bills paid perhaps... And I think lots of companies give them freebies as well, such as diapers, formula, clothes, food, etc

Normal other "large" families don't get that.

ora_43

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 7:52 am

avigailmiriam wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

I've never heard of the racial motivation before. OTOH I don't know too many quiverfull families, maybe 3 or 4.

I think a big factor is that for them, life starts when sperm hits egg. Since the pill can prevent fertilized eggs from implanting--to them, that's abortion. And abortion is murder by them. So most forms of effective bc are ruled out (condom=spilling seed, etc) in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 22 2008, 8:45 am

Raisin wrote:

soldat wrote:

not impressed. what's the big deal with a house that size?

raisin, depends on which brand of x-tianity.
we've got lots of christians around here, and many of them are quite religious, and there is B"h no creepiness. in fact, I sometimes sense more respect from them, then from the Jews around here!

but yea, this family does seem creepy

yes, there are plenty of xtians in my part of the world, and they are not creepy at all. but that is more a cultural thing...the country where I live is strongly xtian.

off topic, but I was talking to a woman the other day. She said she is protestant and her hubby is catholic, so her son is therefore catholic and her daughter protestant. weird or what?

I also heard that in some very old non Jewish man-Jewish woman intermarriages, the daughters would follow the mother and the sons the father (although halachically they were Jewish too of course, and in fact Xtian is through baptism, not birth).