Woman spends a year on Frum Womens Forums for her thesis!!!

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HindaRochel

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 3:03 am

It is the difference between knowledge and expectation. Certainly we know the information is pubic; but the expectation is that people aren't simply going to come and gawk. There's the difference between riding on a bus and looking out the window, or even glancing up as you walk along and seeing inside a window and you and going up and peering your nose to the glass and then telling everyone what you see.

ChossidMom

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 3:07 am

HindaRochel wrote:

Well I guess now you know better. Welcome to the real (and ugly) world.

HindaRochel

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 3:31 am

ChossidMom wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Well I guess now you know better. Welcome to the real (and ugly) world.

yeah. and for what it is worth the author of the study thesis doesn't strike me as kind person or a moral person. Very underhanded.

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 5:28 am

HindaRochel wrote:

Atali wrote:

I don't know how to explain it exactly, but it feels like an evasion of privacy for some reason :scratching head , not that there is any real privacy on the internet anyway..

Yes; because whoever was trolling didn't permission to use the various groups as part of her research. No, because Sequoia is right. Send it out to the Internet world and there is no privacy.

BUT it would have been right to ask at least the owners of the group for permission, and to introduce herself.

How do you know that Yael didn't give her permission?

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 5:50 am

oh I know who it is Smile

Mrs Bissli

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 5:59 am

Now, did she have to cite all posts referenced in footmarks?

Somehow, I personally feel it may be hard to write a coherent thesis using imamother given frequency of hijacked threads...

merelyme

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:09 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I agree with Clarissa. Why so surprised? How do we know who is lurking and reading the stuff we post? How do we know what use they want to make of it?

I had a look at the paper and she does discuss imamother specifically. She also discusses many other "frum" forums and brings examples of the discussions about intimacy. Pretty disgusting, if you ask me.... But she'll have to answer to her creator for that...I don't really want to read that garbage.

Okay, that's wrong and unethical. The intimacy forum is a private thread, and she made it public.

Zus

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:19 am

I have no problem with this.
As long as this person is a frum married woman, she can be on this forum.

merelyme

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:24 am

Zus wrote:

I have no problem with this.
As long as this person is a frum married woman, she can be on this forum.

And publicize what's said in private threads?

Zus

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:27 am

As long as it's 100% anonymous and no LH etc etc...sure why not?
Look we're all hiding behind our screens, even if we post under our own screen name and not amother. In that sense, even this board, even the private sections, are fairly public, anonymous and definitely NOT secluded. Everybody who posts on this board should realize this.

merelyme

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:41 am

Then why have any forum be private?

ss321

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 6:41 am

Raizle wrote:

I agree with Atali.
We signed up to this forum for whatever reasons each of us had,
But I really don't think anyone here expected to become the subject of someone's thesis.
A friend of mine was doing a thesis on something to do with childhood development and asked parents for permission to use their kids as subjects.
We can't stop anyone from taking what we post on the internet and using it for whatever they use it for, but that doesn't make it ethical.

sorry, the internet is fair game. youre jewish, married, you sign up, what you do after that is really up to you.
the reason your friend had to sign a permission slip is because doctors are bound by confidentiality agreements. in order to do a study (such as the one you mentioned, on childhood development), explicit permission must be granted by each study participant. that is federal law.
there is nothing unethical about someone citing internet message boards in their thesis.

I dont think its fair for anyone to "accuse" avigayilmiriam of being the author. for one, she was definitely not at bar ilan. but second of all, she didnt leave to write her thesis, she left because of the animosity on this board.

ss321

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:26 am

merelyme wrote:

Zus wrote:

I have no problem with this.
As long as this person is a frum married woman, she can be on this forum.

And publicize what's said in private threads?

if you do a simple google search for imamother, you might run across a site (I did) that posts an entire (very shocking and terrifying to me) conversation that took place within a "private" subforum here. Without posting anything that will get me banned, in brief, the debate is about what is more "important" from a chinuch perspective, teaching your children about your rabbi/rov/rebba/gadol, who is tangible to them since a picture of him can hang on the wall, or teaching them about Hashem. one poster said we need to make a stronger effort to emphasize hashem so our children dont think we do things to make [our gedolim] proud. Someone else posted that her dd thinks that she is davening to [a certain gadol] because that is more tangible to this child than hashem. another poster supposedly posed "Is that why kids who are older have so many questions? They never got a G-d in the first place???" Whatever. It went back and forth and was really shocking to me. could be the entire thing is made up or a figment of her imagination. perhaps it is from Hashkafah.com or some other newfangled site. Who knows? IDK if she is even a member of that subforum, maybe someone PM'd it all to her- how would we know? Did she break a law? Maybe she is no longer a member of imamother either. who knows.

either way, there is nothing unethical or immoral about using the information you find on the internet for your own purposes. OTOH, a PM, I believe, should be treated like an email. Would I post the contents of an email someone sent ME (and did not CC to anyone else) in confidence all over the web? Certainly not; THAT IMO is unethical, and just mean. So too, I would never breach someones "trust" by sharing the contents of a PM with anyone without prior permission. But just what you find on the web???

Im sorry to break it to you all, but if a thread was locked or deleted yesterday, and you remember a phrase that someone used (lets say the words "never fear the rain again."-that is some ad that keeps popping up on this site, I just took those random words), and you google "imamother" and "never fear the rain again," chances are you will come across the thread. If you click on the link, you will probably encounter something like http://www.imamother.com/forum.....4af8b ("The topic or post you requested does not exist"). But OTOH, if you click on "cached," you will be sent to googles latest 'copy' of the site, before it was removed. So even if something is "private," just know, that on the net, it never really is private.

devowitz

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:27 am

I just read a little over half of the article, and nothing has offended me yet. in fact, I'm kinda flattered that we are worth studying.

She does not name users, she does not even quote us. All she does, so far, is write about the issues that we bring up and discuss. She also trolled a bunch of other OJW sites, not just Imamother.

Incidentally, maybe we can learn about ourselves by reading what she says about us.

Gotta go, this is gripping reading

ss321

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:39 am

merelyme wrote:

Then why have any forum be private?

lol. never really understood that.
I am not that computer proficient nevertheless dont have a hard time digging up hidden threads using google as my only tool.
I think it is more to keep the convo on topic and prevent outsiders from posting....keep in mind that if you think outsiders are prevented from looking....well google is pretty universal and not exactly hard to use (Im not talking about any fancy add ons, Im talking about clicking on "cached" after a search)....and Im sure all the real tech-savvy women out there can tell you that sites CAN be hacked. Heck, if the FBI's website has been hacked, if banks like Hapoalim and I am sure others (just that one is recent and so comes to mind) have been hacked and copied, I dont think "hacking" into imamother would be toooo difficult for an expert. That is not to say Yael doesnt do an excellent job weeding out trolls (remember the whole Sue/[some other name] troll from a couple yrs ago?), but if people want to hack a website, they can.

ChossidMom

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:45 am

merelyme wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

Okay, that's wrong and unethical. The intimacy forum is a private thread, and she made it public.

No, no, no. You misunderstood. I didn't read it all but I did see some pretty disgusting quotes made by MEN in other supposedly frum forums. That's what I meant by "I don't really want to read that garbage".

Anyone who is concerned with "shmiras eynayim" in any way should steer clear of that report. (shmiras eynayim = guarding your eyes against immorality)

Seraph

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:49 am

HindaRochel wrote:

Atali wrote:

I don't know how to explain it exactly, but it feels like an evasion of privacy for some reason Scratching Head

, not that there is any real privacy on the internet anyway..

I have no opinion on the matter either way. However, generally when studies are done, the participants are informed that a study is being done upon them.

happyone

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 7:57 am

I'm not shocked or surprised. As long as she didn't use posters user names in reference to statements said, it's not the end of the world IMO. There's no breach of privacy when taken from a public forum. We all know, or at least know now, that anything aired on the net is for public viewing. For those it bothers, take it as a lesson to watch what you post. If it's not something you want shared, or reread in several years, don't post it.

sympa

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 8:01 am

I'm not terribly disturbed by it. The one problem I do have with this type of article is the fact that it may publicize an aspect of religious Judaism that could be seen as negative. Frum women are usually quite tzenuot regarding s-xuality and limit discussions, except for where appropriate and leto'eles. Here, however, women are rather open, and discuss issues (possibly because of the comfort of anonymity?) which might normally be taboo. I guess that's part of what makes the topic interesting enough for a paper, but it doesn't necessarily bring out the best in our community.

YALT

Tue, Jun 30 2009, 8:23 am

I didn't read the whole thing. But what I read, it seems like she only brings out negativity about the frum women.
Well, in this day & age, let's sue her for invading on our privacy, and the money will go to imamother for it's upkeep. LOL

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