English Names | Imamother

chanchy123

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 5:04 am

soldat wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Drives me crazy when people say "Hebrew" for Jewish.

why? All of my kids names are Hebrew.

but many names are Jewish and not Hebrew
in our school we are very careful to say
JEWISH name and JEWISH birthday

I know this had been discussedc here, and is considered contraversial, so feel free to either ignore this, or delete if you think this is not shayach on this thread.
But I fail to understand why Gnenedal or Shayna are any more Jewish than Jennifer or Amy. These names (as I'm sure Ruchel can explain with a consice etimological background) are derived from common non jewish names and were adopted by many Jews. Mostly these Yiddish or Latin, or Ladino, or Arab, or French, or whatever names, were usually coupled with a Hebrew names such as Dov Berel or Tova Gittel, many times these names were translations of original Hebrew names, and although people always knew Fortuna or Faiga as just that, everyone knew that Fortuna was actually Mazal (so is Glickel BTW) and Faiga was really Tzippora, sort of like the people here saying Avraham and Abraham are actually the same name with a different pronounciation, which is true, my mother's name works that way too.
It's just the language of the Jewish people is Hebrew, Yiddish is a dialect spoken by some Jewish people at certain periods of time in history and in certain geographical points. There is no Kedusha to Yiddish it is a functional language, it has lot's of folklore and nostalgia. Even if you think of the Neturei Karta or Yerushalmers who oppose using Hebrew for daily transactions - this is because they consider Lashon Hakodesh to be just that kodesh. So I may disagree with the implications of this, but we both agree that the use of Yiddish is arbitrary and today plays the very same part as Brooklynese English.

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 5:10 am

I have a Yiddish name (which matches the English one given which matches the Hebrew one given) because that was my maternal grandmother's name and I am named for her. In shul, my father gave me the Hebrew name. I was known in society by my Yiddish name growing up in America, except for Hebrew classes where I was known by my Hebrew name and official documents (like at the doctor's office) where I was known by my English name. Confusing? You bet!
Anyway, my parents brought me to Israel at age 10 and since then everyone calls me by my Hebrew name, which is what I use to introduce myself even in the U.S. (except to people who wouldn't know what the name is, in which case I give my English name). Everyone uses my Hebrew name, except my family who still calls me by my Yiddish name and those pesky official U.S. documents where I am known by my English name.
Parents, do your kids a favor: give them one name and be done with it LOL

Rodent

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:15 am

chanchy123 wrote:

soldat wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Drives me crazy when people say "Hebrew" for Jewish.

why? All of my kids names are Hebrew.

but many names are Jewish and not Hebrew
in our school we are very careful to say
JEWISH name and JEWISH birthday

I TOTALLY agree with this. I find it somewhat amusing actually that people will give Yiddish names as religious names but won't give English names in the same way. Why? Yiddish is a Germanic dialect, it's not some random language created by G-d where every nuance has special meaning. But people aren't about to give Rhys or Chloe as names. If someone did, would it be justified for their grandchildren to then repeat them as "Jewish" names?

I know this sentiment isn't popular but it's the first time I've seen someone say the same as I think!

We only use Hebrew names, not even Aramaic. It's the only true uniting language.

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:32 am

If a non Jewish name has been absorbed into the Jewish pool (Yiddish, Ladino, Arabic names but also Alexander for example), then it IS Jewish. When Chloé and Rhys get used by and on regular Yidden with rabbi approval (and when the rabbis use these names on their children), I will consider them Jewish.

I am not the type who needs to outfrum my ancestors. If such Yiddish or Ladino name was deemed good for their children, they are certainly for mine. Even Rashi used a (Judeo) French name on one of his daughters.

Other problem, not all of these names are easily translatable into Hebrew. Some are machlokes or the mpeaning is kinda lost.

And NO, Feiga was NOT necessarily Tsipora. There were sib sets with both names. Also Gittel was never Tova unless she was Tova Gittel... or unless she made alia...

Also, OF COURSE all Jewish languages have kedusha! just not as much as Hebrew.

Oh well. I know it's a common DL pov. Another reason my family isn't cut for Israel. LOL

chanchy123

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:40 am

Ruchel wrote:

Well, in a certain generation in America the name Maurice was very common for Jewish men - does that make it a Jewish name. How about Jennifer which was very common during the early eighties for baby girls, I'm sure there are more Jewish Jennifers than Tsharnas - does that make Jennifer a Jewish name? I'm pretty sure Am Yisrael in Mitzrayim did not include Gittels and Berels (just like they didn't bother wearing shtreimels or black suits).
You can't hold the stick at both ends.

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 8:43 am

Quote:

Well, in a certain generation in America the name Maurice was very common for Jewish men - does that make it a Jewish name.

Maurice is extremely common. But it is NEVER used at the bris! Maurice is Moshe!

Quote:

How about Jennifer which was very common during the early eighties for baby girls, I'm sure there are more Jewish Jennifers than Tsharnas - does that make Jennifer a Jewish name?

Do you mean girls named Jennifer at the naming by a rabbi/with rabbi approval? If no, then no.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure Am Yisrael in Mitzrayim did not include Gittels and Berels (just like they didn't bother wearing shtreimels or black suits).

and? I don't get this argument.

youngbubby

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 9:42 am

SOmething very interesting is said in all these posts about english names or jewish names....I teach in a public school . almost all of my kids are black with a few muslim. I dont have any black children by the name of steven or charlie or david ..... most of the black children have african American names and the Muslim kids have muslim names , like this is who they are and they are proud. Its the Jews who always wonder to use thier Jewish name or not. We should be proud of our Jewish names like the people of different ethnic heratige are...I once went to a freinds colledge graduation...THe blacks went up when they were called...al by their real african names the muslems or whatever theuy were came up dressed with the scarfs and their names..like mohamed ect and my Jewish frum friend lets say her name is chanie..she had them call her up as Karen...there is something wrong with this...

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 10:05 am

MANY black and Muslims use French names in France, and dress the French way. And in the new generation many also do not (which many ppl think is wrong) or use their black/Muslim name or get one if they don't have one.

Apart from the older generation who are marked by the war, most Jews I know who use a secular name don't do it out of fear or not being proud. For most it is their custom, or just stam they like the name. For some very charedi ones, they "don't want their Jewish names sullied by the mouth of non jews". Quite different from a lack of ethnic pride...

realeez

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 10:31 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Peanut2 wrote:

I worked at a non-Ortho Jewish school and there was a girl named Eliana whose Hebrew name is Elisheva, and a boy named Aaron whose Hebrew name was something like Zusha Berel Shmerel (or some other yiddish name I would never hear in my modern ortho community.)

I've seen a year book form some NY MO highschool where at least two of the girls had English names like Avital or Talya and Hebrew names such as Gittel or even Rivka. I tried to explain to the friend who showed me the year book what was so funny but she didn't get.
B"H I lived in Israel my whole life and we never had to deal with such galut problems.

That's my situation. My parents decided on <First><Middle> both being Hebrew names (well one Biblical) and then once I was born, their parents put on pressure for other names (one Yiddish, the other Biblical) so when my father "named" me, he gave the names from their parents but I have always been known as <First> and that's what my parents wrote on my birth certificate, school applications and I have in my HS year book. All was fine until dh's Rosh Yeshiva was getting the info for the kesubah in order and said it has to be written as my "real Jewish" names dismiskariyah (who is known as) <First> bas ..... Talk about a mouthful! I always thought I was in a really unique situation but over the years, I have met others in the same situation and last time I posted about this here, I got some PMs about others who are the same. Really, on a day-to-day basis, it's no big deal (other than when dh gets an aliyah and gives a different name and when I was sick and someone wanted to add my name to the mishaberach l'cholim and was confused getting a different name. I have it easier than dh who is called by his middle name and since his birth certificate has the other name first, he is usually called that and even his med school diploma says "X. Name Last-name."

Mommish

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 10:31 am

youngbubby wrote:

I think its a little more complicated than that. Some of the sounds that are easy for us are impossible for Americans to pronounce; many people from Asian countries for instance also have alternate English names. I think of it more as practicality than pride. There is also the issue naming a Hebrew or Yiddish name after someone who went by only their English name their whole life. Are you truly naming for that person if you call the child by a name they only used a few times in their whole life?

amother

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 12:33 pm

Okay, so while we're kind of on the topic, something I've been wondering about . . . My mother (and Aunt's) had yiddish names (they were first generation American) that they were always called, eventually their friends anglicized the names a bit -- ie - Golda became Goldie, Tybi became Toby. They never had "Hebrew" names b/c they were given a yiddish name at birth. So, a generation later (think 1960s) when their kids (my siblings) had bat and bar mitzvahs, they "gave" them a Hebrew name. Golda became Zehava and Tybi became Tova. So, when naming after these people, what name should we use? Is the "Hebrew" name really the same? When someone is saying a misheberach using the mother's name, which name shoudl be used?

Thoughts?

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 12:47 pm

amother wrote:

Those who don't believe in Yiddish names would say Zahava and Tova... by me, Golda and Toyba are very fine... and even if some name was added as a translation it wouldn't matter to me. I know from reading articles and sheilos on the topic that many (rabbis) agree with me...

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 1:17 pm

Mommish wrote:

Um... so?

Regarding the whole Hebrew/Jewish names thing, I think the distinction is more like if it's not IN Hebrew, then it is most likely ethnically Jewish, meaning more Jews would use it than non-Jews.

youngbubby

Wed, Aug 12 2009, 2:43 pm

I have to disagree....Alot of the blcak peoples names are so hard to pronounce let alone spell. THe muslim names are spelled so wierd that u cant sound them out right. Jews who use Jewish names need to realize that its ok if people make mistakes when they say their name its the pride that goesalong with it.A while back when I was having my babies one of my teacher friends called me up to congradulate me on the new baby. When she asked me my daughters name she was alittle stunned..how can u have 3 letters together without a vowel..and when it is put together like "oh my gosh" we had a good laugh and she said in a joking way"dont ever make fun of my peoples names yours our just as hard" and she is right in a way but like I said the black kids I teach and their parents are very proud of their heritage and their names..not to compare but we should be proud also.