Mixed swimming | Imamother

Peanut2

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:27 pm

From my (limited) understanding a woman would not be allowed to do so because:

A. She is naked and there is a difference, "even" in halacha, between being naked and wearing a bathing suit.

B. She would be the only one dressed like this, and thus would not disappear in the crowd, so to speak.

C. She has no good reason for doing so.

However, there is room to permit wearing clothing that would not be tznua when walking down the street in certain situations, especially for professional and health reasons.

For example, a young woman who studies gymnastics, even if not professionally but just as an extra curricular activity, may be permitted to practice and compete wearing the required uniform, which happens to be a leotard. It also happens to be what every other girl is wearing at the time.

The OP didn't ask for psak or permission, just to understand the logic of why this would be permitted, and I am trying to explain the logic. It doesn't mean you have to go swimming or start taking gymnastics.
But no one should ever assume that a woman who does these things, even when men are around, is not properly frum.

Atali

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:29 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

In shuls and wedding halls, thereï¿½s no mixed seating for men and women. How can it be possible to permit mixed swimming even if absolutely everyone wears tznius outfit? Men and women can physically bump into each other. Thatï¿½s negiah - touching. Besides the fact, where can you find a beach that absolutely everyone would be tzniusdig?

Get ready to duck for cover or prepare for 30 or so posts on how they think it is some strange charedi chumra to have separate seating

Atali

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:31 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

The logic here seems very weak.

ora_43

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:37 pm

Atali wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Get ready to duck for cover or prepare for 30 or so posts on how they think it is some strange charedi chumra to have separate seating

Hey Atali, you read my mind!

Ok I don't think it's a crazy hareidi humra, I just don't think it's a very good argument here. Anyone who's going to argue for mixed swimming is from a crowd where mixed seating at weddings and other simchas is standard.

Atali

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:40 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Atali wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Get ready to duck for cover or prepare for 30 or so posts on how they think it is some strange charedi chumra to have separate seating

Those from more machmir circles may not even realize that there are people who do have mixed seating at weddings.

I have actually never been to a wedding of observent Jews where there was mixed seating, although I know they exist.

ora_43

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:42 pm

Peanut2 I also find the logic odd, for a few reasons.

- It's entirely possible to tell swimmers apart even when they're all in uniform.

- In any case, even if someone was confused while you were in the water, when you get out and walk around the pool deck in your suit they'll know it's you.

- How would the same logic apply to someone doing gymnastics or dance or whatever else in revealing clothing? In that case, you can see her face and can clearly tell who she is.

- If in theory revealing clothing were to be permitted for gymnasts, even amateurs, then why not for everyone, everywhere? If there's a heter for a woman to do jumps and splits in front of a man, wearing a leotard, then for sure you can wear a tank top on the subway, right? The latter sounds a lot more modest, anyway.

Peanut2

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 6:03 pm

Sorry if the logic doesn't suit everyone, but I'm happy to provide another explanation:
If that's what my rabbi says then it's halacha and who are we to argue?

It may be nuanced, but often halacha is less concerned with who is going to see you and more with what you are doing. I am not at all certain that the same rabbis who permit exercising at the pool (even when men are present) would permit going swimming with your husband at a mixed beach just because "there aren't so many people there."

I assume you are allowed to do splits in front of men for the same reason you are permitted to get your make up done by a man for your sister's wedding. You don't have to do either, but plenty of frum women do both.

Got to go swimming now Wink

Atali

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 6:12 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Atali wrote:

I have actually never been to a wedding of observent Jews where there was mixed seating, although I know they exist.

I've only been to one or two weddings where there was separate seating for everyone. Although in all DL weddings I've been to, the frum single men and single women sat separately by choice.

That is interesting. I would have assumed that the DL in Israel would be more strict about things like that (at least among the more machmir crowd).

Mrs Bissli

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 7:33 pm

Atali wrote:

I didn't say that is why they would go to the pool, rather that it is a "side benefit" of going. Meaning that while they are anyway there (to swim) they happen to notice the women in bathing suits. And no it is not "his problem"; normal men notice attractive women in swimsuits. You can also not differentiate between women who are attractive and those who are not.

Using a similar analogy, how can a man walk outside in NYC during the summer? There is also a "side benefit" of seeing untzniusly clad women.

And Besiyata Dishmaya, that's exactly my point. Not all frum weddings have separate seatings. At kiddush men and women socialise. I'm not saying it's universal but definitely in my circle. Tznius as I understand has a dat yehudit aspect, so it's not black-and-white issues but range of acceptable levels depending on the environment. If you want to call it desensitised to tznius that's fine, but the society at large I belong to does not see an issue with mixed swimming per se.

Last edited by Mrs Bissli on Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:23 pm; edited 2 times in total

Atali

Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:16 pm

Quote:

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Atali wrote:

Mrs Bissli wrote:

[quote="Atali]
How do you know that all of the men there are also coming exclusively for exercise?

I could see this logic being used to permit swimming in a mixed pool while fully tznius (in a tznius swimsuit) if no separate pools are available and you need the exercise, but it does not follow that it would permit you to wear a swimsuit since there is no guarantee that the men are also only interested in exercise.

Hmm... why would men PAY to get to the gym/swimming pool when they can ogle untzniusly clad women for FREE on the street in this weather? Anyway it's men's problems, not women's.

Can you fix your quoting so it doesn't look like I wrote what you wrote?

There is a clear difference between the two in that one is avoidable and the other is not. I agree that it is not proper for a man to walk down the street in an area where women are particularly untznius if it is avoidable.

For example, Seraph wrote that in the streets near the beach in Netanya women tend to walk around in swimsuits. Therefore, I would not choose to go to such a place (and kal v'chomer my DH) unless I had a good reason to do so (such as needing to get to work or going on mivtzoyim there).

I certainly wouldn't recommend that frum men should walk around those areas as a recreational activity.

Perhaps if the only way a man could get to work would be to swim across a river it would be a different story.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Tue, Aug 18 2009, 6:52 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

In shuls and wedding halls, there’s no mixed seating for men and women.

why would you say that?

Quote:

Men and women can physically bump into each other. That’s negiah - touching.

Not forbidden negia. It's an accident.

Regarding Shul I’m not talking about MO. I don’t know their customs. But concerning swimming why go to mixed swimming where there is a high possibility of negios?

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 8:56 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

In shuls and wedding halls, there’s no mixed seating for men and women.

why would you say that?

Quote:

Men and women can physically bump into each other. That’s negiah - touching.

Not forbidden negia. It's an accident.

Regarding Shul I’m not talking about MO. I don’t know their customs. But concerning swimming why go to mixed swimming where there is a high possibility of negios?

I'm not talking MO. Many JPF and + shuls have mixed seating for weddings.
As for seating at weddings, most weddings I attended (including some modern charedi) had mixed seating (either for everyone or partially).

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 9:45 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

What is JPF? And what is Modern Chareidi? In what are they more lenient than Chareidim besides mixed seating?

JPF is "just plain frum". Not MO (modern Orthodox), not charedi/ultra Orthodox.

Modern charedi are charedim, but not shtark like for example, the women all in black and the men in tights.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Aug 19 2009, 10:00 am

Ruchel wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

What is JPF? And what is Modern Chareidi? In what are they more lenient than Chareidim besides mixed seating?

JPF is "just plain frum". Not MO (modern Orthodox), not charedi/ultra Orthodox.

Modern charedi are charedim, but not shtark like for example, the women all in black and the men in tights.

According to your description of Modern Chareidi, I guess most chareidim fall in this line. Most of us women are not all in black and I haven't really seen or heard of chareidi men in tights. Confused

I don't recall going to any JPF mixed wedding in the US, Canada, Israel or Europe. Perhaps in some European cities, they're more lenient. I don't know.