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-> Judaism
Ruchel
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:29 am
GR wrote: | Ruchel, can you translate the gravestone? I'm still confused. Why does it mention a "Mussia bas R' Yehuda Leib" and it looks like the years I mentioned are referring to her. |
I wish I could read Russian!
I wonder, maybe this Mussia is the daughter of the couple? does anyone know more about Chabad genealogy?
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gryp
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:34 am
LOL, I forgot it was Russian.
Ah well.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:42 am
I googled a bit and apparently Mussia is their daughter.
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anuta
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:07 am
I can translate the gravestone.
there are three different women's names on it (and three pics, so it figures)
the top one says "Riva Leivinovna (patronymic, means her father's name was Leib) Sheerson, died May 11 1933 at 79"
second one down says "Mussia L'vovna Blank (L'vovna is a patronymic, means her father's name was Lev), 1878-1956
Third one down says "Sima Tihonovna (patronymic; her father's name was Tihon) Bashmachnikova, 1907-1976, also has month and date but they are too small to see
Judging by dates, it looks like they were a mother, a daughter and a granddaughter.
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gryp
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:17 am
Thank you, anuta!!! You cleared up that mystery for us.
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:19 am
In Israel you can see it on some non-religious Russian graves. They probably imported this custom from the Russian gentiles.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:40 am
google gives me:
"Rebbetzin Rivka Schneerson, died 1933, 79 years old. Rivka was the daughter of Devorah Leah, daughter of the Tzemach Tzedek of Lubavitch. Since she was born in 1854 she probably remembered her Elter zeide pretty well. Her father was Rav Levi Yitzchok Zalmanson of Velizh, and her husband was also a Schneerson., He was Rav Yehuda Leib Schneerson, Rov in Gomel and Vitebsk, and the son of Rav Yitzchok DovBer of Liadi, author of the Siddur MaHaRid. RYDS was a son of Rav Chaim Schneur Zalman of Liadi, son of the Tzemach Tzedek. A certain blogger uses this Matzeivah as "proof" that there is NO such name as Mushka, it's only Mussia. Nu, nu. The Matzeiva also includes her daughter, Mussia Blank, who passed away in 1956, and another woman, died 1967, who I was told may or may not have a non-Jewish name, so it may or may not be family. It's sad to see the negelect...
I thank the blogger formerly known as Tzemach Atlas for translating and explaining the Russian words for me."
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gryp
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:46 am
So both Rivka and Yehuda Leib were grandchildren of the Tzemach Tzedek. Devorah Leah (Rivka's mother) and Chaim Schneur Zalman (Yehuda Leib's father) were brother and sister, meaning they were first cousins.
Got it now.
I only wonder now who Chaim Schenur Zalman was married to.
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sarahnurit
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 3:34 pm
Very interesting! I love genealogy!
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freidasima
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Wed, Jun 17 2009, 3:38 pm
It is definitely a Russian originally non Jewish practice. The russians brought it here to EY. Bulgarians and other slavic nations also do it and you usually don't see it on frum graves. The fact that it is where it is on the picture that Ruchel posted means one thing, that the people in the grave certainly didn't put up the gravestone! Hence we can't be sure that it wasn't put up by a non-frum Jewish relative of theirs who did the usuall thing in their culture.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Jun 18 2009, 9:13 am
In France and Italy I have seen it too, and on frum graves.
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louche
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Thu, Jun 18 2009, 9:23 am
ss321 wrote: | Ive never seen this in america, interesting. |
I have. Not often, but in Jewish cemeteries. Not knowing anything about the deceased or their families, I wouldn't even guess whether ot not they or their heirs were observant.
It seems a little ghoulish to me, though why it should be any more ghoulish than keeping a photo album or tape recording of someone who's departed, I couldn't say.
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Ruchel
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:05 pm
YUP, it is a grand daughter. Sorry, tolerate the genealogy geek here. I found Sima, finally.
Tihon must have been Tuvia.
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MagentaYenta
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:46 pm
ss321 wrote: | Ive never seen this in america, interesting. |
Evergreen Cemetery in Boyle Heights (East Los Angeles) has numerous headstones with photos, primarily in the ashkenazi section. I've also seen it in smaller Jewish Cemeteries on the East Coast.
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ms5771
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:55 pm
My whole family is Russian and there was a practice to do this. I don't know if any of my frum ancestors had it, but I know my great-grandparents (not frum) definitely had on theirs.
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Iymnok
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:21 pm
My mother always said it's a bad idea. In the cemetery my grandparents are buried in many of the pictures have been shot off, it's like asking for vandalism.
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OOTBubby
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:26 pm
ss321 wrote: | Ive never seen this in america, interesting. |
I've seen it in some sections of Jewish Waldheim cemetery in Chicago.
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greenfire
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:16 pm
I've seen it - quite intriguing & you get to see who is buried instead of imagining - but of course that's only if you talk to dead people like I do ... even strangers along the pathways of the souls I know
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MagentaYenta
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Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:44 pm
greenfire wrote: | I've seen it - quite intriguing & you get to see who is buried instead of imagining - but of course that's only if you talk to dead people like I do ... even strangers along the pathways of the souls I know |
I'm glad I'm not the only one who speaks to dead people.
Re photos on tombstones, some of my family converted to Russian Orthodoxy before the came over, all of their headstones in the Orthodox Cemetery have their photos.
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