Avoda zara and pics of celestial bodies

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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Seraph

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 1:48 am

I know there is some halacha regarding not drawing pictures of celestial bodies, as its one of the aseres hadibros (the second one, I think). What exactly is the halacha?
If I'm doing parsha with kids, am I not allowed to cut out a circle, and crescent, and star shapes for them to glue down to represent the celestial bodies that hashem created on the fourth day?

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 1:52 am

I don't know about others, but you are not allowed to draw a full picture of the sun - make it in the corner of the page so that the corner is chopped off (was that clear?)

Seraph

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 2:23 am

shalhevet wrote:

I don't know about others, but you are not allowed to draw a full picture of the sun - make it in the corner of the page so that the corner is chopped off (was that clear?)

Thats what my husband mentioned. But what makes something be a "picture of the sun"? as opposed to a flower or something else thats a circle with spikey parts?

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 2:48 am

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I don't know about others, but you are not allowed to draw a full picture of the sun - make it in the corner of the page so that the corner is chopped off (was that clear?)

Thats what my husband mentioned. But what makes something be a "picture of the sun"? as opposed to a flower or something else thats a circle with spikey parts?

I guess what you intend it to be (even without the spikey parts).

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 4:40 am

Interesting, I have never heard about this... what about taking pictures? what about the moon?

red sea

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 7:01 am

More info, sources? Never eard about it tho may explain all the corner cut off suns.

chocolate moose

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 7:03 am

why, are you davening to them ?

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 8:24 am

I think the source is the second of the Aseres hadibros:

Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

Details I don't know.

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 8:27 am

Wow, this is very interesing

ShakleeMom

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 9:11 am

shalhevet wrote:

Wow, this is very interesing

Double wow!

sky

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 9:30 am

I read this in the Kashrus Kurrents magazine that comes out from the Star-K. It sounds like because a child's picture doesn't look like the sun that it may be okay.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/.....e.htm

Q: Can I make a birthday cake in the shape of the sun? It would be a round cake with cookie sticks around it to represent the sun’s rays.
A: The Torah1 states, “You shall not make with Me, gods of silver and gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves.”2 As Rashi3 tells us, the first phrase is understood to mean - you shall not make images of that which is with Me – I.e. images of heavenly bodies. For this reason, it is forbidden to make a model of the sun or moon or the stars, even if the image will not be used for idol worship.4 Similarly, a two dimensional drawing of these objects would be prohibited5.

The Shach,6 however, limits the prohibition to ‘complete drawings’.7 Therefore, one could draw a partial picture of the sun, although it is debatable as to whether a picture of the crescent of the moon is considered a partial picture or a whole picture.8 Furthermore, a picture of the sun would be problematic only if it were to be a good representation of the sun.9; Therefore, Rav Moshe Feinstein writes concerning a child’s drawing of the sun that it is an issue only if the child’s drawing is a good likeness to the sun, which is most often not the case.10
It would seem that a cake baked in the shape of the sun would not be a better likeness than a child’s drawing and would, therefore, be permitted. This was confirmed by Rav Heinemann, who told me that the Star-K clearly feels this way since it displays a picture of a star on every product it certifies.11

sympa

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 2:44 pm

Quote:

This was confirmed by Rav Heinemann, who told me that the Star-K clearly feels this way since it displays a picture of a star on every product it certifies.11

Zus

Tue, Oct 13 2009, 4:22 pm

I can honestly say that I've never heard of this.

Ruchel

Wed, Oct 14 2009, 4:07 am

I asked my dh. He shrugged and said at Jewish school they made them draw (full) suns, moons, etc.

Atali

Wed, Oct 14 2009, 6:10 am

Ruchel wrote:

I asked my dh. He shrugged and said at Jewish school they made them draw (full) suns, moons, etc.

Presumably they relied on the psak that Sky quoted above.

mandksima

Tue, Oct 27 2009, 2:03 pm

Wow, I feel really good about learning something new today!

joy613

Wed, Oct 28 2009, 1:18 am

I think even if you make a sun with a smiley face in it thats also ok.
Also, some people hold that this is a problem even if you don't make the picture yourself, but have it in your house, like in books, toys, etc.I know someone who makes a prick/little hole in any full picture or drawing of sun, moon, stars...in books. Their 'twinkle twinkle little star' book is quite a 'hole'y book now.

merelyme

Thu, Oct 29 2009, 5:44 am

Hashem loves me wrote:

I think even if you make a sun with a smiley face in it thats also ok.

Rabbi Avrohom Blumenkrantz zt"l told us that we are not allowed to make a full-circle picture of the sun with a face in it. He said if the sun is not a full circle, but drawn in the corner of the page, then we could draw in a face. He said we do not need to get rid of pictures we already made.

ETA: just read Shalhevet's link. Baruch shekivanti.

ruth

Fri, Oct 30 2009, 8:13 am

ChSh wrote:

Quote:

This was confirmed by Rav Heinemann, who told me that the Star-K clearly feels this way since it displays a picture of a star on every product it certifies.11

I second that, LOL

I'm glad to know that rabbaim have a sense of humor.

But seriously, I think we should ask a knowledgabe rav.

What about photos? Can we visit observatories, see the photos by Hubble? I wonder if the issue is solely our kavanah because d'oraita is says clearly "don't make," There were/are gadolim who were astronomers. It is necessary to know the patterns of the sun & moon in order to establish the luach. So observing is ok. Making an image isn't. but is it a geder (fence)? Studying astronomy causes us to be in awe of Hashem's creation... which might lead to avodah zara? What about referances to the solstice (summer/winter solstice?) There are people who make connections of Hannukah to being -- literaly -- in the "darkest" time of the year (ie winter solstice)

So is any art depiction is assur? I know someone who has a abstract piece of the 4-seasons. fall is depicted with a sun and with wind blowing leaves. I guess this is something we should abstain from?

healthywoman

Fri, Oct 30 2009, 8:34 am

is this true? cuz im making an abstract picture I made the moon a full circle. although its really just a round circle which has different colors. I was intending on making the earth but didnt work so well lol so I made it the moon.

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