"Stumbling block"-our obligation to those not frum

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Sep 26 2010, 9:35 pm

I guess this question is more for those who have regular contact with Jews whoa re not shomer mitzvahs, although anyone is welcome to answer.

This question has been rattling around inside my head for a while.

Obviously, we as frum Jews do our best to follow halacha as we know it, and while we make mistakes, generally we can be called 'shomer mitzvos'

When we interact with those who are not frum, how far does our obligation not to put a 'stumbling block' extend?

Some examples. I am not looking for individual answers to each one, these are just examples so you know they types of things I mean.

Inviting someone for Shabbos/ YT who will drive
Leaving toilet paper out in the bathroom knowing they will rip on Shabbos/YT (tissues/pre ripped also available)
introducing a non frum (Jewish) boy and girl (hopefully to make a shidduch), knowing they wont be shomer negiah
Serving someone a meat meal knowing they are going out for ice cream afterwards (meal was prepared or at least planned before you found out about the alter plans)
@ a house of mourning, the mourner (who usually you would get things for) asks you for food that is at the table but isnt kosher
@ a house of mourning as a woman with only 10 people overall in the room, knowing they are 'counting' you in a minyan

etc- feel free to add your own examples

I know different groups have different answers, so if you feel comfortable, please identify your group. PLEASE respect that others may have different opinions on matters and dont condemn an answer that is different from one you have/received from your Rav

melbee

Sun, Sep 26 2010, 9:48 pm

I've actually wondered about this myself, esp recently. Another example I'd like to add that has been bothering me a lot lately is marrying 2 Jewish, but not frum, people in an Orthodox wedding knowing that they will not keep TH, and should they C"V get divorced, will in all likelihood not go through the process of a Get. In which case, the girl may remarry afterward and commit, unknowingly of course, adultery.

I know at least 2 couples who were married by Orthodox Rabbeim who as part of the agreement mandated they attend kallah/chosson classes, and in both cases the couple told me it was "interesting to learn but not something they had any intention of ever doing".

Considering that this is predominant, if someone, maybe someone in kiruv, could explain how it's not a stumbling block, I would be very interested to hear.

As to your other examples, personally I try to avoid anything directly involving my non-frum friends and family in mitzvot or Shabbos and don't invite them if I know it will break halacha for them to come. They may choose to come anyway knowing about Shabbos, and have come many times, but I do not invite them, and that is the compromise I made for myself. For some of your other examples, for instance introducing a couple who will not be S"N, a person may consider that "the lesser of two evils" (which very well may be the response to my example as well). I'm not sure about the halacha of such a concept, but that may be where the answer lies. Sorry if I'm not being clear, it confuses me also, but it's a very interesting topic and I'm very interested in the responses you get.

Oh, also, I was told by my Chassidish Rav once that my brother could visit us on Pesach YT even tho we knew he'd be leaving by cab and plane while it was still YT if we thought it would make an impact on how he views Yiddishkeit, and we did absolutely nothing to aid in his leaving. So the impact it would make on a person could also make a difference in how much a stumbling block it is. Just a thought...

shanie5

Sun, Sep 26 2010, 10:01 pm

Inviting for shabbos meal: I have heard that as long as u have a place for them to stay, its okay to invite them. Even if u know they wont.

As for chosson kallah classes, they may plan on never following, but people change all the time-having the knowledge sets them in the right direction-even if takes years for them to go in that direction.

You are also not allowed to give food directly to a jew who wont make a brocha-so u put the food down next to them rather than directly in front of them.

The only for for s/o who doesnt know is to learn-slowly. So we should do what we can to teach, but not by shoving it down their throats. Let them accept as much as they are able to from our actions and (gentle) words. You never know how what we say/do today will affect them in a year or ten years in the future.

someoneoutthere

Sun, Sep 26 2010, 10:03 pm

It's a good question. I will point out, though, that some of these things are more than stumbling blocks but serious halachic issues. In fact, there are halachos regarding giving someone bread if you know they will not wash... While I'll comply with your request that we identify where we're coming from- I'm a Lubavitcher and run a Chabad House- bear in mind that these answers are not broad brush answers. They're answers given to specific times and places. While some are general policy, I cannot answer for anyone else but ourselves.

As for answers to some of your specific examples- first and foremost each person in their unique situation should discuss with a rav because a lot of the answers will be quite tailored to particular cases.

Regarding inviting on shabbos- 2 general answers I've heard from rabbonim are that if they're within walking distance (again, that is not the same everywhere) then it's not your issue how they get there. Also, reality is they'll be driving anyhow and so them driving to you isn't causing extra chillul shabbos (and, in fact, the longer they're by you the longer they arent being mechalel shabbos)

The toilet paper and "shidduch" Smile

question- there is no guarantee they'll transgress whichever transgressions but it probably makes sense to not leave toilet paper in the bathroom (we don't in our Chabad House which is mainly used on shabbos for just such a reason. But..it's actually our hope that the boys and girls will find a Jewish mate at our table...)

The same with the ice cream/meat meal- there are no guarantees they'll do that after and you're not being the cause of anything direct.

The shiva house question about food is relevant in a lot of other circumstances. I'm not sure I'm not sure how I'd go about it and I'm trying to remember if we've ever had reason to discuss this with a rav.

As for the shiva minyan- we have a policy of not being at shiva houses with questionable minyan policies during davening times. That includes myself and my husband. And, if I found myself in such a situation, I will always excuse myself that I need to run the baby needs me. We just don't go to shiva houses in the later evening.

Bichlal, I think there's a line that is drawn between directly causing an aveira- such as issues with inviting someone who will drive on shabbos, and issues where there is no direct effect from your actions, such as the meat meal/ice cream trip after.

About the example of weddings- I think every rabbi that marries 2 Jews must inform them of the obligations and ramifications of a get in the event that they should ch"v divorce. As for Taharas Hamishpacha- again, no rabbi should be marrying a couple where the wife did not go to mikve before the wedding (this happens to be standard policy by many rabbis across the spectrum, even outside of EY) and learning about TH. Should she choose to or not to continue that way...you have no idea how many people keep nothing but TH and how many people keep so much such as shabbos and kashrus, but mikve is just something that's too hard for them. Again, you need to have given them the tools, but the future is something no one can guarantee. (As an aside, 2 of the requirements we have in place for performing a wedding are that the chosson/kalla need to learn/go to mikve before and that the reception must be kosher. Should they choose to have a non-kosher sit down dinner after is a different story)

someoneoutthere

Sun, Sep 26 2010, 10:22 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

someoneoutthere-

You are a perfect person for answering, since it seems you would deal with these issues more than the rest of us. Thank you for your input.

Re; Toilet paper- what about for us, a normal family that uses it 6 out of7 days a week, and simply doesnt have time to remove it before Shabbos always?

Again, and this is only my gut feeling based on a lifetime of living in a world of non-religious people coming to our home, if there are shabbos appropriate tissues, that they choose to use the not shabbos appropriate toilet paper is not your problem. Though it is still an nice extra step to remove it- or get some sort of shabbos cover (preferably a cloth that can be washed Smile

)

I'm no authority on any of this. My husband calls his rav all the time on all sorts of questions whenever things come up but we have never needed to call on this matter as I mentioned in my post above.

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 9:45 am

My answers:

Some have the psak to invite them anyway. Some to invite them if there is a tiny chance they would come by feet. Some not to. We must really really avoid.

We are allowed to rip TP so yeah. Our rav's opinion is that you just tear it NOT on the points, but since some rule davka you tear on the points, there is room for any way and I wouldn't take the TP away (not that we have a different TP on shabbes).

Introducing non frum Jews is a bigger mitsva because they may CV end up intermarried, for my rav.

I would bring the least treif thing, if really impossible I would find an excuse.

I would leave if I was to be counted in a minyan, I cannot participate to something like that.

ora_43

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 10:18 am

In general the guidelines we use are, if someone would have to go out of their way to do things the kosher way in a certain situation, we won't put them in that situation. If they would have to take action in order to do an aveira, it's fine to help create the situation.

So for example, we would not invite non-frum friends who live far away to come for a meal on Shabbat unless we had an actual place for them to stay (the fact that they could, in theory, sleep on the living room couch with the lights on wouldn't be enough, I mean if we had a decent space for them). But we would invite someone who lives within walking distance, or who could stay over if they wanted to.

I would definitely introduce people who aren't religious, or serve them meat. Because they would have to take action to do an aveira in either case.

For another example, I wouldn't give someone chiloni a dish that hasn't been toiveled, even though they could in theory toivel it, or a food they may not kasher (eg. vegetables that they won't check - I'd check fruits or vegetables first).