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-> Interesting Discussions
Motek
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 3:39 pm
Quote: | it is extremely unfair of you to say that if one wanted hard enough, he can make it work |
v'ein ha'davar talui, ela b'ratzon - this translates as: it is dependent solely on your will
this phrase is based on the Zohar parshas Teruma where it's written in Aramaic
a related phrase, though with a different connotation is:
ein davar ha'omed bifnei ha'razton - there is nothing that stands in the way of one's will
there are different levels of wanting something
let's imagine a scale of 1-10
a person can really want something and that would be a 7
he can really, really want something and that would be an 8
and so on
so if a person wants something but doesn't follow through, it doesn't mean they don't truly want it
it means they don't want it enough to get it or do it, for if they did, then nothing would stand in their way
so it's not about fairness, but the way Hashem set up the world
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ForeverYoung
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 4:04 pm
Quote: | so if a person wants something but doesn't follow through, it doesn't mean they don't truly want it
it means they don't want it enough to get it or do it, for if they did, then nothing would stand in their way
so it's not about fairness, but the way Hashem set up the world |
deleted by me
it very well may be that H' has other plans for some people & He will not let them learn full time. But He is H'. YOU have no right to tell us that if we wanted hard enough, we can make it work
Last edited by ForeverYoung on Tue, Feb 22 2005, 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Motek
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 5:44 pm
surely you are not contesting the Zohar ...
"right" and "fairness" are irrelevant
nobody, certainly not me, has told you or even suggested to you, what choices to make
so according to me, you do whatever you do
just as Rochel, Rabbi Akiva's wife, did what she did
she was disowned by her wealthy father, had no family support and no govt. assistance, and lived in dire poverty, no sources that say she accepted charity, rather than she shared with someone who had even less than her
nobody is telling anybody they have to choose to live like Rochel did
at the same time though, Rochel wanted something and NOTHING was going to stand in her way
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Pickle Lady
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 6:21 pm
Motek that makes sense.
When I really wanted something nothing stood in my way. When I was so sad and unhappy that things weren't getting better. I cried to Hashem (literally cried and screamed) And almost the very next day things changed.
But then when we want something it may not be whats really right for us.
Do you mean Motek that the harder you work for something, then more you want it?
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zuncompany
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 6:24 pm
Quote: | at the same time though, Rochel wanted something and NOTHING was going to stand in her way |
I would have taken this as insulting. This is saying if you wanted it bad enough... if you trully wanted- you would have been like Rochel. You don't know the circumstances. You don't know why choices were made. I also could have left nothing in my way to let my husband learn in kollel. We made a choice to do what was right by paying off our debt that we already had. We did not feel it was right to live off of someone else's chedbon and make the debt even worse. We did what was RIGHT for us. I am sure FY and everyone else who chooses not to do kollel have made the RIGHT choices for them and their family.
sara
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zuncompany
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 6:26 pm
Ever heard the saying- be careful what you wish for, and you don't always get what you want.
Sometimes what you want is not always what your derech is.
sara
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Motek
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 6:40 pm
glad you agree ShaynaRochel and that you have personal experience in this
Quote: | But then when we want something it may not be whats really right for us. |
since we aren't prophets, we can only pray and consult with someone and do our best
Quote: | Do you mean Motek that the harder you work for something, then more you want it? |
isn't it a good indication?
Quote: | Sometimes what you want is not always what your derech is. |
can you please explain?
Quote: | This is saying if you wanted it bad enough... if you trully wanted- you would have been like Rochel. |
are you saying that this isn't true?
it's important to differentiate here between the objective truth and what any person might do in their own life! And it sounds like you are confusing the objective truth and its application to individual's lives
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zuncompany
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 7:21 pm
just because we want something doesn't mean we get it. Let use a child as an example. A child really really wants a treat. They ask really good. Still don't get it. So they try to do things to make their parents proud of them and they still don't get it. Than they resort to begging and pleading. Still don't get it.
The parent did not feel it would be good for the child to have this. The parent knows whats best for their child. We can work our tail ends off, be as good as we want, beg and plead... That doesn't mean Hashem feels its the right choice for us.
sara
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Pickle Lady
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 7:47 pm
WAIT
Isn't this what the Rebbe (the Lubavitcher Rebbe) said is what we have to do to bring moshiach.
That we have to REALLY want him. Really do what we are suppose to do to bring moshiach.
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zuncompany
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 8:04 pm
but ultimatly it is up to Hashem.
sara
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gryp
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 8:40 pm
thats the amazing thing about what the L. Rebbe said- its in OUR hands, WE have the power, Hashem has given it to US.
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rydys
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 10:43 pm
Motek, I'm surprised to see your ability to say pshat in a zohar. Ain Davar Haomed Bifnei Haratzon is not a contradiction that the Aibishter has a plan and cheshbon for every one of us. If I had that level of desire for my husband to be in kollel, but he had the ability to be a phenominal rebbe and instill in his talmidim torah, yiras shamayim in a way that no one else could, the Aibishter wants him to be a rebbe and not a kollel yungerman.
Because of my expected future income we asked a shaila whether we should borrow money so my husband could stay in learning longer. We were told it was ossur.
In the near future, we could conceivably manage if my husband quit his job as a rebbe and went back to kollel. We have discussed this with our rov who said it would be ossur for him to go back to kollel now because someone who has the ability to teach has to teach. It is an achrayus, it is his tafkid in this world. He would love to go back to learning full time, but right now it is not right for him to do. That doesn't mean he wants it any less than someone else, just that he is opening his eyes to do what Hashem wants, not what he wants.
Hashem has a plan for each of us. It may look to us like some are more fortunate to be in kollel, but the ability to make it work has less to do with our desire than with the plan of Hashem to make it work.
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ForeverYoung
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Wed, Feb 16 2005, 10:49 pm
ryds, one who learns, learns for himself
a Rebbi teaches others how to learn & gets zehus of their learning too!!
I think you're doing prety well!
And I totally understand your frustration
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Pearl
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 5:05 am
the way I see it, is that both husband and wife have a responsibility to provide for their family and eachother, for the well being of the ins and outs of every individual in their household, each in their own way. my husband would love to be in kollel the whole day every day, but this is not an option, for a variety of reasons. so, we do the best we can, and have patience. because if Hashem wants him to be in kollel every day, then that will happen. until then......
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klotzkashe
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 8:34 am
Motek, with all due respect I must say that I find this thread quite disturbing. Whilst you have not specifically told anyone that their choice is "wrong" or "undesirable," this topic is a sensitive issue for the many couples who have been faced with such a choice. By starting this thread many of the women here feel they have to defend themselves and their husbands for directing their life in a different path than a traditional kollel path.
Whilst you have not forced anyone to do such, this thread I feel is not conducive to the positive feelings that this site wishes to create for the Jewish women who surf here.
In general most of us have to realise this when we post - are we making people feel guilty/upset/disappointed with their lives by posting something which may be seen as "tochacha - rebuke?"
NO hard feelings meant at all!
People be proud of me! I didn't hide behind AMOTHER!
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Pearl
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 8:43 am
[quote="klotzkashe"]People be proud of me! I didn't hide behind AMOTHER![/quote]
most certainly am - ! proud that is. I really wonder what went on here last night, with things deleted and all......
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rydys
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 11:55 am
klotzkashe, it's intereting that you refer to kollel as the "traditional" path. Kollel as we know it is an invention of post-war america. Throughout history, most people worked and were kovea itim l'torah. As was mentioned in one of these threads, there is even a list in the gemora of the jobs that were held by the Kohanim Gedolim! There have always existed kollelim as well, but those who attended were a select few who the gedolim of the time felt had greater than usual potential to become leaders in klal yisroel and therefore should be supported by the kehilla, or those who were wealthy or married into wealthy families.
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Motek
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 3:04 pm
rydys - and I'm surprised that you think I'm saying pshat in a Zohar. Really now!
the phrases I quoted are common phrases that come up in sefarim
it would be like you quoting a Chazal to me and I would say: rydys: how suprising that you're saying pshat in a Gemara
I also wonder why you didn't ask the posters quoting halacha in the Govt. Assistance thread where they got their semicha
klotzkashe - here's a kashe for you:
why haven't you posted in the Govt. Assistance thread, something to the effect that Govt. Assistance and who takes it is a sensitive subject for the many couples who choose to take it, and that by starting a thread like that, a thread which generated a lot of self-righteous and judging comments, as well as lashon hara on entire communities, many women reading this forum can feel hurt, guilty, and ashamed for their way of life. Like 0613, they might feel they have to defend themselves and their husbands for the choices they make, like she wrote:
Quote: | so maybe it boils down to a personal decision to be made by the couple with the help of a Rav. we are not being supported by the community (my husband gets nothing for day seder and $30/month for night seder). we feel it's more important to take govt. aid than to have him stop learning, and I'm finding it hard to see why ppl. don't understand that. |
The government assistance thread, I feel, is not conducive to the positive feelings that this site wishes to create for the Jewish women who surf here. Do you agree? How about posting in that thread too, so that people opting for government assistance don't feel guilty/upset/disappointed and ashamed?
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klotzkashe
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Thu, Feb 17 2005, 6:25 pm
I haven't read the Govt. Assistance thread! I don't read all threads you know!
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