Controversial Posuk

penguin

Fri, Jul 18 2014, 7:01 pm

So, I was thinking about that ‘controversial’ posuk. I am sure I must have encountered it in all my years of day school, high school and seminary. In fact, I studied the entire Sefer Tehillim with Artscroll a few years ago. (I don't say Al Naharot Bavel because, well, I don't usually wash during the week. But maybe I should...)

I don’t recall it disturbing me, so I must have just accepted it as one of the things in the Torah that I don’t necessarily understand, but the fault is with me, not chas vesholom with the Torah.

I think I was disturbed when I heard it sung, with a very cheerful tune – as in some version of “Al Naharot Bavel” that ends with that posuk – and the tune is just a tad lacking in appreciation of another posuk - בנפול אויביך אל תשמח.

Still, when we’re discussing the idea of how much we should regret collateral damage, and, as I mentioned on another thread, you think about the chance that that innocent child could grow up to be Hitler YMh. Don’t be ridiculous! you say. That would never happen!

Right. So what if that innocent baby will grow up to be Khalid Mishal, Ismail Haniyah, Yassir Arafat, Ahmenijhad, Rouhani, Osama bin Laden? Now what? Which one of them would not rejoice to wipe out every Jew in the world?

Well, not so fast. Of course there are very fine Muslims and even Christain “Palestinians” in the world. For example, see:
Son of a Hamas leader who converted to Christianity and now lives in the US
sonofhamas.com
Christy, a Palestinian Christian who, after studying the Bible and the miraculous history of Israel’s wars, concluded that Hashem gave this land to the Jews. She was threatened with death and sought asylum in Britain, where she continues to be threatened.
http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/?s=christy
A former Muslim extremist from Egypt:
http://www.israelvideonetwork......te-it
Arab Christians who joined the IDF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm9-jGNS1vE

And that is very true. Some Arabs, even some Muslims are very fine people. I, personally, believe in Hashgacha Pratis. Therefore, I believe that Hashem will ensure that those children who are killed accidentally are probably not the ones who would join the latter list, but the ones who would join the first list.

EDITED: I am not saying all of them would be terrorists. I am just saying, Hashem has his cheshbonos.

Last edited by penguin on Sat, Jul 19 2014, 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 18 2014, 10:52 pm

It's simple to learn, but hard to accept. According to Rambam's 13 principles, Hashem runs the world, and everything that happens is for the good.

I know, try telling that to a mother who has just lost her child. If it were my child CV'S I could never even imagine having the level of emunah that would make me see that as "all for the good". And yet, at the same time, I know I have to believe it.

Sometimes the most basic Torah concepts are the most difficult. Rabbi Lazer Brody has some really helpful books on this concept, and I'm working hard on trying to internalize them.

ora_43

Sat, Jul 19 2014, 2:51 pm

penguin wrote:

And that is very true. Some Arabs, even some Muslims are very fine people. I, personally, believe in Hashgacha Pratis. Therefore, I believe that Hashem will ensure that those children who are killed accidentally are probably not the ones who would join the latter list, but the ones who would join the first list.

I don't believe this at all. Good people die all the time. That's no less true when they die as "collateral damage" than when they die from illness or car accidents or anything else.

Certainly if a child dies in a car accident chv"s, I'm not thinking it's a sign they would have grown up to be anything but a wonderful person.

ora_43

Sat, Jul 19 2014, 3:01 pm

About the pasuk - I see it as an expression of strong emotion, not as a literal statement of intent. And I see it as applying to the attackers themselves.

It's like how if there's a story in the news about a rapist, there will be comments expressing hope that he will be raped in prison. The people saying that don't really think that prison rape should be encouraged. What they're thinking is that they want a really horrible person to know what the pain they caused felt like.

Same here. The people saying "someone should murder your kids, you animals" isn't really saying that child murder should be encouraged. They're saying, "you deserve to know what this kind of pain feels like."

The fact that they won't experience that kind of pain unless an innocent person dies is one of the complexities of life. There can be no true justice. But I don't see any contradiction as long as we're on the level of emotions, not actions. The two sentiments of wanting someone to know what it's like to lose a child, but not wanting their child to die, can live side by side.

Barbara

Sat, Jul 19 2014, 10:01 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I still don't thing the pasuk says what some people think,it says.

Nevertheless, you are correct.

You cannot take literally what people say in the heat of the moment, in many cases. It's raw emotion, nothing else. After reflection, they often temper their thoughts.

Far from this discussion, I've seen it in the US gun control debate. After Newtown, many gun control advocates said, "ban 'em all." Which the NRA has focused on. But the same advocates later said, heat of the moment, it's not what we mean. And I believe them.