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-> Interesting Discussions
sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 12:23 pm
Why is it that some Jewish last names are frum and others are more secular? For instance, someone called Paneth is more likely to be ultra-Orthodox, while someone called Rosen is more likely to be reform/traditional.
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Notsobusy
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 12:26 pm
I actually know more ultra-orthodox Rosens than Paneths, so I don't know.
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 12:38 pm
glutenless wrote: | I actually know more ultra-orthodox Rosens than Paneths, so I don't know. |
Okay, what about... typically German names?
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 12:41 pm
This sooo depends on location.
IN France a Yekke is more likely to be somehow observant than a Pole, and certainly than a Hungarian. The only Hungarian religious family I know is lite MO and others are traditional (at best....) to totally frei or even totally assimilated for generations.
In NY though? seems the Ungarischers are the frummest.
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tigerwife
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:18 pm
sequoia wrote: | Okay, what about... typically German names? |
That's probably due to the vast haskala movement in Germany.
I find it stranger to read about Nazis named Rosenberg and Schmidt, which were very common Orthodox last names where I grew up.
ETA: what do you mean by 'frummer'? Like more frum people with those names, or if you have that last name you are automatically holier?
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:20 pm
Well- Ashky names are often German or Slavic, Sefardi name Spanish or Portuguese or Arabic.
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Scrabble123
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:24 pm
I think that in certain communities, especially closed insular ones, certain last names became common. Obviously since more people are not "joining" that community, the same names are used over and over again. I never thought of names as frummer, although Chassidish people love when I say that I know secular Tenenbaums and Teitelbaums. They look at me wide eyed!
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:28 pm
I have a frei cousin teitelbaum
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:29 pm
Well Tenenbaum is Xmas tree...
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:29 pm
sequoia wrote: | Why is it that some Jewish last names are frum and others are more secular? For instance, someone called Paneth is more likely to be ultra-Orthodox, while someone called Rosen is more likely to be reform/traditional. |
Of all the names to have chosen. Paneth was my grandmother's maiden name. I think most Paneths are related - if not all.
Rosen, OTOH, is far more generic (for lack of a better word.) I know loads of people with that last name that are not even related to each other.
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singleagain
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:32 pm
from what I remember, surnames weren't even a thing until several generations ago... and most surnames came from occupations or surrounding areas. I mean don't we call one of the most famous artists "da vinci" which simply means "from vinci" the man's name was leonardo..... the only thing that should matter in the last name, is what it means/where it came from, bc it gives you a bit more history
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:32 pm
tigerwife wrote: | That's probably due to the vast haskala movement in Germany.
I find it stranger to read about Nazis named Rosenberg and Schmidt, which were very common Orthodox last names where I grew up.
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My maiden name is very German-sounding. A very nasty (IMO) Global studies teacher told me that it was the surname of a leading Nazi officer. This, on my first day in her class. I assured her that unfortunately my surname did not spare my extended family.
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Scrabble123
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:34 pm
Chayalle wrote: | Of all the names to have chosen. Paneth was my grandmother's maiden name. I think most Paneths are related - if not all.
Rosen, OTOH, is far more generic (for lack of a better word.) I know loads of people with that last name that are not even related to each other. |
Now why would you assume that?
That's a typical [mistaken] frum assumption.
Have you studied the history of Jewish last names? Why would you believe that one name would only belong to a certain family? Unless you specifically know something about this name, it's inaccurate to assume that.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:35 pm
singleagain wrote: | from what I remember, surnames weren't even a thing until several generations ago |
Absolutely depends. Some only started in the 18th century... some started in ancient times.
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:44 pm
singleagain wrote: | from what I remember, surnames weren't even a thing until several generations ago... and most surnames came from occupations or surrounding areas. I mean don't we call one of the most famous artists "da vinci" which simply means "from vinci" the man's name was leonardo..... the only thing that should matter in the last name, is what it means/where it came from, bc it gives you a bit more history |
Not just that, but surnames were not considered all that meaningful to many people.
My paternal grandmother, for example, went by the name of Hershkovic. So in recent talks with her (she has just recently begun to talk about her family and experiences) she told us her father's surname was Gross. So why was she Herskovic? Because her parents did not bother to register their marriage legally until after her birth, so she obtained her mother's surname, not her fathers.
So I asked her -then your mother's surname was Hershkovic?
Well....her mother's father went by the name of Berger. But they also had not registered their marriage at the time of her birth. Her mother, Babba Sara, was previously married to a man named Hershkovic (and the marriage was registered). After he passed away, she remarried Zaida Berger. Since they did not immediately register, her children were given the name of her first husband.
So my grandmother ended up with the surname of a man who is not even her biological ancestor.
Wacky, but apparently no big deal in those days. Everyone in town knew who everyone was.
And my maiden name? That was adapted by a paternal ancestor, back in the days when Maria Theresa Y"SH ruled Austro-Hungary. She passed a law that forbade Jews who were not the oldest in their respective families to marry. Since my ancestor was not the eldest, he obtained a false identity in order to marry and assumed a local name.
Sequoia - my apologies for going off topic here. Just some background on Jewish surnames.
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Learning
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:45 pm
I think because Rosen is a last name that Israelis changed to from names like rosenfeld. It is a modern or secular name that people who came to Israel chose to sound out of the getho.
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Chayalle
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:45 pm
Scrabble123 wrote: | Now why would you assume that?
That's a typical [mistaken] frum assumption.
Have you studied the history of Jewish last names? Why would you believe that one name would only belong to a certain family? Unless you specifically know something about this name, it's inaccurate to assume that. |
I've never met anyone with that surname that was not related. Yet.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 1:47 pm
Some surnames are all related. Some, not.
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 2:08 pm
Everyone with my surname is related.
My grandma's maiden name was Medovar; she didn't change it upon marriage, because it sounded "less Jewish."
There's a joke that "any word can be a Jewish last name."
I do find it funny to read about people whose last names are Russian words -- Zaychik (hare), Bulka (roll), Juravel (crane).
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amother
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 2:58 pm
Paneth? I've never heard of that name, what does it mean it is a biblical name or something?
As for surnames, no surname belongs to frum people or secular people. Jews took their names from the surrounding culture, or nature, or their manner of work, or colours, whatever, regardless of how religious they were. In addition to this, amongst frum people you have a lot of people who have become religious from secular families. Not all frum people have Jewish sounding last names, neither do secular Jews. Equally some secular Jews have very Jewish sounding surnames.
Personally my maiden name (which I still use for work purposes) is not particularly Jewish sounding at all, although some Jews do have the surname. It is an anglicised name. I am really happy I have this name, as having people knowing you are Jewish from your name is not good. Also, many people with non Jewish sounding surnames are Jewish, precisely because many Jews, when they came to the UK or the US, chose "English" surnames in order to avoid being known to be Jewish. At the very least they would choose anglicised versions of names, e.g. Burns (instead of Burnstein), Gould (instead of Gold) and so on.
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