infertility trouble does NOT equal adoption by default!!!

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 5:35 am

amother wrote:

People keep bringing up cost and the possibility of the child having issues as reason not to adopt but can't the same be said of ivf?

Not in every country is IVF prohibitivly expensive so for them comparing IVF and adopting is a big differece in price.
In Israel IVF is not free but not nearly as expensive as I have only hear it to be in america. But adoption would be a LOOOT of money.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 6:10 am

amother wrote:

So let me rather adopt. Because I don't want to risk conceiving children who might have ADHD.

To me it seems that
1) you haven't experienced IF (at least not severe enough to need IVF)
2) you haven't done enough research. Because there's no research PROVING that.

Why do you equate one with the other?

No, there is no conclusive evidence. I didn't say there was. I said studies seem to indicate....and yes, there are plenty of studies that do indicate that.

I also never said anyone shouldn't use IVF because of these possibilities. Amother asked where anyone got the idea of issue with IVF. Each family needs to determine if the risk is worth the possible reward (never mind the risk to the mother).

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 6:14 am

amother wrote:

Every person, every couple, has different ideas about what being a parent looks like. Feels like. When we went through our ART journey, we heard the "just adopt" spiel time and again. It was very hurtful and presumptuous. I wanted to create a baby with DH, I didn't want to be parents to children who weren't biologically ours. Both are beautiful, generous, and amazing "options", but they are different paths. Some people want children no matter how they arrive, and that's incredible. That's not what we wanted, yet it kept being fed to us by more people than I care to remember. I think many people just do not see this view, and I wanted to share it with you. (And I think what you do is exceptional, Chani, I do.)

That's fine to want to create your own child. However, what is not fine is threadcrapping when people are experiencing trouble with their naturally conceived children. That's what trigger the inital comment. I have never said to anyone else "just adopt."

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:09 am

amother wrote:

I think you have really messed up info regarding IVF. Banging head

I think you must have blinders on.

There are many thing we do as people that weigh the benefits and drawbacks. This includes things like getting into a car (which is a HUGE sakana people take for granted). If you think the risks are worth it, go ahead and do IVF. If I were in that situation, I would also choose IVF. I recognize that there are increased risks with it though. That makes me an informed person, not "messed up."

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:15 am

amother wrote:

Everything in life can turn into a huge sakana. Being pregnant and giving birth naturally can also be a huge sakana - perhaps we should all adopt.

Not to compare the two, but just like you won't tell someone with cancer "chemo and radiation are a huge sakana; I mean you gotta weight the benefits and risks, but you just need to be informed...", don't come here on a thread about infertility saying the same.

At wits end

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:19 am

amother wrote:

Actually, yes. People with cancer need to debate all sorts of treatments.
People should weight in all factors when trying to get pregnant.

I didn't come to attack anyone on IVF. Someone else mentioned the risks and amother asked what risks and I responded about studies that were done.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:23 am

amother wrote:

Actually, yes. People with cancer need to debate all sorts of treatments.
People should weight in all factors when trying to get pregnant.

Not saying ppl shouldn't look into the best treatment (perhaps with least side effects or risks - but not always an option). But if you have no experience in either of the abovementioned scenarios, kindly don't bring up risks, especially if you have no source.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:27 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

you can't just throw around "facts" without sources. studies? real articles? if you don't have that, you continue to look foolish while hiding behind amother.

It is definitely a fact that a pregnancy of multiples whether conceived via art or not, is a higher risk pregnancy than single fetus pregnancy. For example the risk of prematurity is much higher.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:28 am

amother wrote:

are you talking from experience with cancer? ppl do what they have to do sometimes to keep themselves alive. no matter what. and I talk from personal experience.
and weighing all factors when trying to get pregnant, it seems like you are not talking from experience either. its not always about that at all. when I took clomid, then injections, I weighed nothing. I knew I wanted to have a child.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:32 am

amother wrote:

It is definitely a fact that a pregnancy of multiples whether conceived via art or not, is a higher risk pregnancy than single fetus pregnancy. For example the risk of prematurity is much higher.

In that case, perhaps doing IVF is even safer than getting pregnant naturally. You never know if you ovulated two, maybe three eggs! With IVF, you can choose to do a singleton.

Ugh.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:33 am

I didn't know adoption was so controversial in the frum velt. I knew several adopted frum kids in my by growing up. Maybe since art procedures have become more advanced people are less likely to "give up" on having biological children.

musicmom

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:43 am

There are two separate issues. One is raising children, which adoption can allow people to do. The other is raising YOUR OWN children. Children with your ancestor's genes, etc. I had a very strong desire not just to have children, but to have MY OWN children. Everybody is different. My husband would have been fine with other children, or not having any children. I have a feeling my biological clock played into things more. Anyhow, this is a very sensitive topic to me. People should NEVER ask if you want to have children, if you are trying to have children, how many more children do you want... Also, they should never wonder behind someone's back why they don't have children. IF is painful enough. BTW, what helped my family was that my husband and I said the Perek Shira everyday.

dancingqueen

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:50 am

Not saying what people should do or not, as it's obviously a personal choice, but there is a common phenomenon where a couple adopts after seemingly exhausting their art options and then afterwards naturally conceive a biological child.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:05 am

dancingqueen wrote:

They don't conceive because of adopting. There can be a host of reasons, one of them being that technology changed, some new treatment came out, giving them a better chance. And this phenomenon is unusual. Don't ever tell an IF'er "just adopt... You'll see you'll have your own afterwards". Adoption is beautiful thing - not a segulah to become fertile.

Keep in mind: most of these "adopted then became pregnant" stories - these people don't say the full story.

Raisin

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:50 am

dancingqueen wrote:

also, I've heard of cases where a women has primary infertility, goes through treatment and then conceives naturally. I wonder if there are any studies done, I am not convinced there is any correlation. In any case I hope people adopt because they want that child.

Ruchel

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 10:08 am

Raisin wrote:

I was not aware that bas kohanim were restricted to marrying kohanim, or even necessarily preferred to.

Some have the minhagim to really aim for it.
But it's no halacha, anywhere.

Last edited by Ruchel on Fri, Nov 21 2014, 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Ruchel

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 10:09 am

I have read about higher rates of xyz, lower rates of xyz... is it because of the treatments? because the families had a genetic problem to begin with also causing the IF? who knows.
What I know is that for some Americans, EVERYTHING causes autism/yena machla/etc. Lo alenu. So, at least, this is with a bigger advantage than say lipstick or deodorant or microwave or or or ...

I'm willing to bet someone in treatments has still a lower rate than the MANY women on the pill for years if not decades.

Yes, some people seem to have a "block" that goes away after adoption. Or after a natural birth. But one can't expect.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 10:39 am

Raisin wrote:

That happened to a relative of mine. The doctors believe that in her case, either the treatments or the actual pregnancy "fixed" the issue. That won't be true for everyone though. Some people will never be able to conceive naturally. It depends on what the problem is and I'm sure some other very individual factors. It's kind of like a complicated psak halacha. What is true for one isn't necessarily going to be true for someone else because it may depend on very specific elements that the average layperson is not aware of.

As to adoption, I also know someone that happened too- adopted a baby, and found out a few days after the bris that she was naturally pregnant. The kids are 8 months apart and in the same grade in school. But that was obviously just a happy coincidence (min hashamyim, of course, by coincidence, I mean that one thing had nothing to do with the other, Hashem simply decided that it should be that way).