For those who selectively vaccinate

anon for this

Fri, Nov 07 2014, 9:54 am

amother wrote:

I agree with you 100%
IMHO with my beliefs in place, OPs child is probably better off with unvaccinated kids around than vaccinated, as vaccinated kids tend to get sick more often than the unvaccinated. Besides some vaccines shed and some actually cause the person to get the condition vacinated against as a side effect.

Amother, what's your source for the claim that vaccinated children get sick more often than vaccinated ones? Also, when you say that vaccines shed and can cause a person to get the condition vaccinated against, are you referring to live vaccines such as OPV or Flumist? If not, please cite your source for this.

Thanks.

cbsp

Sun, Nov 09 2014, 12:03 am

(I'm not this amother but it was easier to quote you here than your long post)

amother wrote:

That's funny. Because actually researched it a lot. Have you? What did I say that was untrue? Oh, and I also DO care. A lot actually. I just care about my own child more.

FWIW, I had a pretty nasty case of chicken pox when I was 5, still have scars. Did NOT have the titers when they tested during my pregnancy almost 3 years ago (approx 33 years later), did not end up with the vaccine then due to complications, but recently got it as recommended by the doctors. So, it seems that titers ARE checked and that it is possible to have had the disease and still not be immune for life. Maybe statistically it works out, but I'm not a statistic, who said your child is?

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 09 2014, 8:13 am

cbsp wrote:

(I'm not this amother but it was easier to quote you here than your long post)

FWIW, I had a pretty nasty case of chicken pox when I was 5, still have scars. Did NOT have the titers when they tested during my pregnancy almost 3 years ago (approx 33 years later), did not end up with the vaccine then due to complications, but recently got it as recommended by the doctors. So, it seems that titers ARE checked and that it is possible to have had the disease and still not be immune for life. Maybe statistically it works out, but I'm not a statistic, who said your child is?

Wow. I've never heard of being tested for chicken pox titers. The CW is that if you're old enough, and have a strong enough case, you won't get it again. (I got it twice, first had it as a baby. From what I heard, it was a strong case though. Second as a teen was mild.)
I had my titers tested for MMR, I don't remember why. For some reason even though I was vaccinated the numbers weren't good and I had a booster. The theory was that that batch, from decades ago, might have been weak.

monseychick

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 9:32 am

Statement on Vaccinations from the OU and Rabbinical Council of America
OU Staff February 10, 2015

Orthodox Jewish parents, like responsible parents across the United States, overwhelmingly vaccinate their children against measles, mumps, rubella, polio and the other childhood diseases for which inoculations are now almost miraculously commonplace. As in many communities, a small minority of parents chooses not to do so. The ongoing measles outbreak demonstrates how this could bear very serious consequences, not only for their own children but others’ too, especially those medically unable to be vaccinated. The Orthodox Union (OU) and the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) strongly urge all parents to vaccinate their healthy children on the timetable recommended by their pediatrician.

Parents who choose to not vaccinate often cite a medical study that purported to link autism and the MMR vaccine. The study was discovered to be fraudulent and was withdrawn; its lead author was found to have acted “dishonestly and irresponsibly,” and his license to practice medicine in Britain was revoked.

Judaism places the highest value on preserving human life. It is well known that those facing even a potential life or death situation are instructed to set aside the Sabbath and other key tenets of halachic (Jewish law) observance until the emergency has passed. Prayers for good health and for the complete and perfect healing of the ill are an ages-old aspect of Jewish tradition. But prayers must go hand-in-hand with availing oneself of medical science, including vaccination.

There are halachic obligations to care for one’s own health as well as to take measures to prevent harm and illness to others, and Jewish law defers to the consensus of medical experts in determining and prescribing appropriate medical responses to illness and prevention. Therefore, the consensus of major poskim (halachic decisors) supports the vaccination of children to protect them from disease, to eradicate illness from the larger community through so-called herd immunity, and thus to protect others who may be vulnerable. The vaccination of children who can medically be vaccinated is absolutely the only responsible course of action.

amother

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 9:39 am

monseychick wrote:

THAT says it all.

Scrabble123

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

THAT says it all.

You do realize that in the English language so-called does not imply a condescending comment like "so-called righteousness," right? It's also used before using terms that have a specific term such as "so-called Juicy Couture clothing."

Either way, regardless of your opinion on herd-immunity; as a Jew you have an obligation to follow appropriate, accepted medical advice of the times which includes vaccinations (unless you follow the extreme minority opinion that says not to - that would be way way way way less than 1% - oh.. and you would have to follow the other psaks from that minority Rav as well)........

Just for the record, MMR titers are a complex issue: it is believed that the testing is not sensitive enough to pick up vaccine induced titers so if you have a documented dose an adult (didn't have proof of vaccination as a child, were given the dead vaccine as a child, etc. etc.) it is more reliable (even if your titers come back low again)...

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 11:11 am

I don't really understand that statement. It starts off saying " strongly urge all parents to vaccinate their healthy children on the timetable recommended by their pediatrician. " which indicates that it's an individual decision for each child.

But they end off saying that it is a communal obligation to vaccinate, as if it's a global decision.

So which is it, an individual (note, they did not say to necessarily follow the CDC timetable) or a global?

If you go by the first paragraph, then no one can be upset if others with their pediatrician have decided on a different timetable (this is the thread for selectively vaccinating after all).

Scrabble123

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 11:15 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I understand that the beginning which states," strongly urge all parents to vaccinate their healthy children on the timetable recommended by their pediatrician" to refer to medical reasons that may contradict vaccination with certain vaccines. They then say that it is also an individual obligation to vaccinate based on halacha as well as a communal obligation which is highlighted below:

OU wrote:

There are halachic obligations to care for one’s own health as well as to take measures to prevent harm and illness to others, and Jewish law defers to the consensus of medical experts in determining and prescribing appropriate medical responses to illness and prevention.

21young

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 11:39 am

MiracleMama wrote:

My only knowledge of the OU is as a kashrus organization. Perhaps they have a scope beyond that; I honestly have no idea. Are they also involved in some way in the medical field that they are issuing such a statement?

I have no idea whether you are pro-vax or not, but that is absurd. Rabbanim are good enough for religious exemptions but when they come out pro-vaccines suddenly their credibility is questioned? as far as I know the OU is mainly a kashrus organization, but they also rule on many halachic matters, and they would not come out with such a statement without rigorous fact checking first. This statement was also released by the RCA.
You ask for someone involved in the medical field - most doctors are pro-vax and you scoff at that. Now the rabbanim are pro-vax and they are questioned. Who else do you need to hear it from in order to believe it?

MiracleMama

Wed, Feb 11 2015, 11:50 am

21young wrote:

First, I am neither pro or anti vax. I am pro freedom to choose. If you want to view that as anti-vax, I can't stop you, but really I am very much not.
Second, I have never asked a rabbi for a religious exemption from vaccines or anything else, so I don't know why you're making this brash statement at me.
I am merely wondering what vaccines have to do with their brand/ business.

Imasoftov, thank you for posting that link. I had no idea they were involved with so much more than kashrus. (Though I still don't see what they are involved with that makes their opinions about vaccinations relevant).