Can u explain frum ppl being happy over gay marriage?

Barbara

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:51 am

etky wrote:

Indeed. But are we really supposed to sustain this type of dichotomy as frum Jews? Is our religious hashkafa not supposed to inform our world view on all matters, at least those that have a moral component? Where do we draw the line and using which criteria? I don't know the answers, just underscoring the complexity of this issue.

THIS is the Orthodox view on homosexuality

http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com

And that of course informs my worldview.

No one should ever be discriminated against or hated or treated as a lesser person because of whom she loves. And I celebrate the end of the U.S. Government doing so.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:53 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No. the sin is to have relations, not to be married. And yes, I know that one means the other, but the getting married part is not a sin, not at all.

Okay. Now you are just getting technical. I will not support gay marriage, because then I am support gay s-xual relations. I believe that gay people have the right to do whatever they want in the bedroom, none of my business. I also believe in gay rights. In my opinion, gay people have all the rights that other people do. Marriage will not change that. I don't believe they can be married, because marriage is between a man and a woman. I would more easily support gay union, or some other name that allows Gay people to form a legal bonding them gives them rights as a couple.

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:54 am

morah wrote:

I believe the court made the correct decision. That said, I agree with op. I find it very off-putting that so many frum people are openly celebrating and the rainbow fb profiles are bothering me too. I may think the court ruled correctly, doesn't mean I have to be happy about and celebrate something so against our values. Yes, it's against our values. Doesn't get more against than an explicit Torah Prohibition.

I am the op. I agree with this completely. I think the decision was fair, but it doesn't mean frum ppl should be openly celebrating an 'ideal ' that is against the Torah.

etky

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:55 am

imasinger wrote:

Because being gay is not a choice, but the way some percentage of people are wired. For those who face all the challenges that this entails, AND are denied certain rights that have nothing to do with the bedroom, is offensive.

Because this concept of long term gay partnership is not treated d'oraita. Or d'rabbanan.

Because even the 7 laws of b'nai Noach are not treated the same. You don't hear frum Jews screaming that atheists should be given fewer rights than believers, for instance.

Because, as a musician, I have many friends whom this affects personally. When it is a set of people you care for and respect, it's a different experience than being against some amorphous other that is doing something the Torah forbids.

I am delighted for this victory for fairness under American law.

I know many people who are gay, including some who are quite close to me. It doesn't change my fundamental grappling with this issue. Yes it is a fair ruling and if Torah didn't exist I'd be thrilled. But it goes against Torah values and explicit prohibitions. So what are we to do with that?

Barbara

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:55 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No. the sin is to have relations, not to be married. And yes, I know that one means the other, but the getting married part is not a sin, not at all.

Actually, what is forbidden is a specific act that lesbians cannot perform, and that studies indicate that most gay men don't perform (or perform only rarely).

Barbara

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:00 am

etky wrote:

Go campaign for a law outlawing Shatnez. Or atheism. That's against Torah as well.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:01 am

Barbara wrote:

I agree that no one should be hated or discriminated against. I don't believe that not allowing gay people to marry was discrimination. Had there been a law that said gay people can't live together, or sleep together, or have civil union together, that would be discrimination. But that was not the case. Gay people have the exact same rights as everyone else in the country. They couldn't be married just like a person can't marry a chicken. Marriage is between a man and a woman. You can call marriage between two men marriage, just like you can call a chicken a cow. Saying it don't make it so.

morah

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:04 am

etky wrote:

The cheeseburger doesn't have feelings, It doesn't care that it is being rejected by you. There's no moral dillema. Not allowing two people who love each other to marry can be construed as a very cruel, backwards and unenlightened Jewish position.

The laws of who can and can't get married in Judaism are all very difficult and I know people to whom these rules caused great pain. Why does a mamzer have to pay for the actions of the parents? Why are kohanim so restricted? Intermarriage is a difficult and weighty matter that many people would say we tend to be "unenlightened" about. Doesn't change the facts on the ground.

octopus

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:10 am

I don't know why a frum person would be happy over this. Besides the fact that I think that gov't sanctioned immorality is always a bad thing, I think it opens a pandora's box. Whose to say that legalizing polygamy will be next? bestiality? My feeling is that the ppl on the left have an agenda. And it has nothing to do with "rights."

etky

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:13 am

Barbara wrote:

I identify fully with the statement of principles, but it still doesn't solve the conflict. The US govt has fully sanctioned gay marriage and placed it on an equal footing as heterosexual marriage. I don't see how, as an Orthodox Jew, this can make me happy. Yes I can rejoice in the fact that they will enjoy equal rights but these same rights run counter to what Torah tells us is the normative human couple relationship. I don't see a resolution to this. I view the two value systems represented in this issue as irreconcilable.

amother

Crimson

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:17 am

You're already skewing liberal to begin with- from the ones that are willing to put themselves and their views on facebook, many of them are also succumbing to the non-Jewish peer pressure of embracing the 'rainbow' to make themselves feel and look good.

octopus

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:19 am

Barbara wrote:

While I don't disagree at all with your link, I'm not sure exactly how that informs your worldview. The statement is about ppl with homesezual orientation. Not marriage. I fully believe that a person should not be persecuted and thrown out of their community because of their orientation. But they state unequivocally that Judaism does not sanction gay marriage.

etky

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:20 am

morah wrote:

Yes but those are not the issues 'du jour'. My point was that this was yet one additional, very conspicuous way in which Orthodox Jewish values clash with Western liberal and democratic values. It pits us against the mainstream in a very visible and awkward way. I was disagreeing with the poster who claimed that "this doesn't affect us in any way". It does. It accentuates the gulf that sometimes inheres between Orthodox positions and liberal western values. When this disparity touches on issues that have a moral, human component - unlike shatnez or kashrut for example, they are harder to defend both to the outside world and to ourselves.

imaima

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:23 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

It is actually one of the only sins for non-Jews. It is one of the noahide laws.

I was also under the impression that male homosxuality was abomination to Hashem regardless of ethnicity of males.

amother

Ecru

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:25 am

I'm going to go off on a tangent here... I'm happy that all gay individuals now can get married in the U.S. but I believe the court decision was not the legally correct one. I have a little bit of an interest in constitutional law so I tend to follow some Supreme Court cases. And the SC is supposed to rule on whether or not a law is constitutional, NOT whether something should be a law or what's right or wrong or even worse, to create laws.

Everyone agrees that states have the legal rights to determine marriage. And that everyone has equal rights to get married under the current marriage laws. It's true that until now you couldn't marry individuals of the same s-x in every state, but saying that that violates the 14th amendment is a stretch. By the opinion given by the court, no marriage should ever be denied by states (think an incestuous marriage, polygamy, or even marriage to an animal.) And you can even take it further to so many areas of life.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:29 am

smilingmom wrote:

I did not change my profile to skittles colors, but I am for equal rights for all people.
If gay couples could have the same rights and protections without a 'marriage' that would be great, but our federal laws give married couples rights that domestic partnerships do not have.

I'm not pro gay marriage. I'm very concerned about it, and deeply concerned over people who are anti gay marriage (NOT anti any particular people) ~~will be~~ are considered bigots.
But smilingmom, this is interesting. You almost wonder if it'll strengthen straight marriage if the rights can only be given to married couples. Why didn't civil unions work again? I wasn't following it too closely at the time.

ETA: Amotherecru immediately above me, I've heard this said and it sounds very logical to me.
OK, off to read the posts between smilingmom and ecru and see if the thread doesn't get locked. I think it's supposed to. OTOH I think there are a lot of people who need a place to discuss this so maybe it should stay open?

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:35 am

imasinger wrote:

I thought it was covered. As painful as this is, people aren't supposed to act on their urges. Yes, I say it's painful. And I have an enormous amount of respect for people who not just with loneliness but integrity in knowing that they are doing the will of their Creator (yes, the same Creator who made them this way).

ETA: Barbara, I don't know all the technicalities so I don't know how that would impact the loneliness issue. As I've said before, because these threads often evolve into "And what if one of your kids told you s/he was gay?" I would help her/him find rabbanim who really know their stuff in how to deal with this issue and urge them to form a relationship. I don't know whose these rabbanim are but I've heard they're out there. These rabbanim would be able to explain the halachic parameters and give them validation and endorsement in their life's decisions.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

imaima

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 10:36 am

octopus wrote:

I have read an article about incest. What is the point of forbidding it? The only reason is religious. What's wrong with breeding sick people? They have the right to exist too. A 70 y.o. man is not forbidden to have children, why would it be forbidden for a brother and a sister?