Do You Potch?! For Mothers of Children Ages 6-11 ONLY!

WriterMom

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 7:03 pm

Leora2 wrote:

(-and to the poster who said that spanking doesn't happen in the Jewish world in southern communities because it happens primarily in low income under educated families--that's an ignorant, not to mention arrogant and elitist, statement.)

I beg your pardon, are you talking about me? This will have to go right up there with ad hominem attacks, because you're not responding to anything I actually said. (And ... psst ... passive aggressive alert!)

What I did say is that your behaviour has a lot in common with groups you probably don't identify with, or don't want to identify with:

Jewish parents are significantly less likely to hit their children than atheist, Protestant or Catholic parents.

The group mostly likely to hit their children in the US are African Americans, likely due to their having, on average "lower-income, have less education and are more likely to follow a religion that implores them not to spare the rod for fear of spoiling the child - all factors that correlate with use of corporal punishment, regardless of race."

Parents who break the cycle of violence and do not hit, despite being hit as children themselves, tend to be highly educated, of higher economic status, and live in more stable and prosperous areas.

Mental health plays a role: mentally ill mothers are more likely to hit their special needs kids than mothers who are not mentally ill. A New Zealand study shows the same thing, for kids in general, not just special needs.

A metastudy found that parents who hit are more stressed and have less advanced cognitive and emotional capabilities.

In the US, there is most certainly a regional dimension, and that article decrying hitting children was published by a prof at Southern Methodist University, isn't irony delicious?

Finally, spanking leads to kids with lower IQs, although researchers can't determine if this is because being spanked stunts development, or if parents with lower IQs are both more likely to spank and more likely to have kids with lower IQs.

As to the Jewish tradition and halacha, behold, an article by a scholar at Bar Ilan (it's a very good school, and this paper isn't based on internet fora) delineating the evolution of Jewish thought on the matter, concluding that while in theory hitting children has been permitted, in practice it has been strictly circumscribed, and the trend is toward a complete prohibition.

But what do I know, I guess I'm ignorant and elitist LOL

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 8:09 pm

I'll preface my post by saying: I was hit as a child (probably until far too old, actually), and out of anger. Just thinking about it now makes me squirm with shame, embarrassment, anger and humiliation. Both of my parents have apologize, separately, for hitting me, and I have forgiven them, because I think when I was growing up, that's kind of just what was done. As other posters have said, at least I wasn't hit with a belt or shoe like some of my friends. I'm very close to my parents and we have a great relationship, and always have, but the hitting was NOT something I like to think about.

What's bugging me about Leora's methods is this: she says that only spanking is enough to deter her children's repeated misbehavior, and when she was a child, it held the same for her. Privileges being revoked, groundings, lectures...apparently that wasn't enough. Only the spanking would do it.

So my question is: how hard are you hitting your kids already?

To me - and as someone who WAS hit - having my computer time taken away, or not being allowed to sleep over at a friend's house, would hurt me a lot more than a spanking. I mean, even with "5 swats", the spanking is over pretty quickly. And if you're hitting your kids hard enough that it HURTS THEM, like really hurts them so badly they will never ever repeat the behavior that brought it on, then you're beating them too hard.

So this train of thought leads me to think that it's not the spanking that deters the behavior, but it's the accompanying fear, humiliation, embarrassment, and confusion that they don't want to experience again. And I know how that feels all too well. Why would you ever want your child to feel that way?

Leora, didn't you feel that way when you were spanked? Or was it simply, "Gosh, that stings. Don't want to experience that again!" I mean, if you're hitting your children harder than say, getting your eyebrows waxed (which we do over and over again, because the pain is momentary), then that's basically a beating. Which is child abuse.

Leora2

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 10:38 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

What will be your new method of discipline since potching failed? I'm still confused about the learning curve on potching. What are you going to do now that you actually have to teach your daughter acceptable behaviors instead of ritualized hitting.

Really don't know why I bother, but as I've said many times, potching works very well for our family. It worked when I was a child. It worked with my dh was a child. It's working for our children now. Don't know why you think it's failed. My daughter is incredibly appropriate, a leader and a wonderful friend, child, sister, and student and as I've said multiple times, gets potched once every couple of years.

Yellow, my kids aren't being beaten. You may be projecting your relationship and early experiences onto mine. Clearly, my experiences with being spanked by my parents were different from yours as I don't squirm with shame anger embarrassment etc. 20 years later.

And WriterMom, those cites are aeons away from peer-reviewed journals, where if you do the research you'll see there's plenty that's anti-spanking and plenty that finds it not so bad after all. (disclaimer: we are not talking about abuse.)

And now I'm really done. This thread is longer a poll, no longer an exchange of ideas, no longer even a debate of philosophical views and has become purely an attack on one view. I wish you all many happy years with your unpotched little darlings and I will choose to view your posts as suggestions made from a point of ahava and selflessness, rather then the vitriol it's turned into.

WriterMom

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 10:44 pm

Several of them are most certainly peer reviewed, and the rest are journalist pieces on, yes, peer reviewed research. But I don't expect you to value research, as the very clear consensus of research on hitting children is that it works on only one measure: short term compliance. I'm more than happy to put together an impeccable bibliography of peer reviewed articles to illustrate, but since you answer good-faith, civil and educated argument with ad hominem attacks and an insistence that you're right because you're right because you're right...

By the way, I'm not sure vitriol means what you think it means, as there's very little of it here, and the petulance is mostly one way.

Can you find me a single peer reviewed article from the past decade that shows that hitting is 'not so bad after all?' I am asking in good faith, because I killed a train ride looking this up in databases and found absolutely none.

Butterfly07

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 11:31 pm

I highly disagree with physical discipline. I am saying this from experience.
As kids and young adults, my siblings and I were (what started out as 'potched') over time my parents got used to it. My father took it a bit too far -saying it nicely. Abuse (hitting included) is not an ok answer to problems. I believe it is a way for the parent to release tension and not actually tackle the problem at hand. I do believe that if your little kid does something harmful to his/her life c'v like runs out into the street, (because they may not fully understand what you are trying to convey verbally) it is ok to give a potch; to express the outcome of their action, in a way that they are more likely to pick up on at that age.
We are living in a different generation then back then. Things change.. I can unfortunately and honestly say, that one of the top things I took from my childhood/ my parents, is how I do not want to be with my kids imyH'.
*Group title wise, I should not be on this thread. But once I saw what it was about, I had to give my input. Please don't emotionally ruin your kids out of anger. There are other ways

Machel

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 12:33 am

While I don't necessarily say I wish my parents had hit me, I do have to say I respect a parent who says "this is the punishment" and then follows through. Whether it is a potch or grounding, I think what is important is the child knows that there will be a consequence, and makes the choice to do something accordingly, especially teenagers. As a teen my mom never followed through on her threats when I did something wrong, so I learned I could get away with anything, and I lost some respect for her. I know now she did the best she could, but it really stuck with me and I think I would have rather-ed a knowingly deserved potch than nothing at all.

WriterMom wrote:

Then it doesn't make kids behave better, does it, if you knew you'd be hit and chose to do what you did anyway?

Look, I'm sure you're a good mother, and have a good relationship with your kids. I don't think the fact that you hit undoes everything good that you do. But you're not just 'agreeing to disagree' with imamother's collective wisdom; you're disagreeing with every parenting and development expert out there, barring a handful of Christian fundamentalists, whom I don't think you otherwise want to emulate.

Put another way: I know people who say "my parents hit me and I turned out fine." I also know people who say "my parents hit me and the memory still hurts and I wish they hadn't." I have never, once, talked to someone who said "my parents didn't hit me but I really wish they had."

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 7:31 am

Machel, the follow-through is crucial. You're right. We don't make a huge big deal of punishments in a way; we warn, then impose the consequences: no computer time, no TV, no going shopping, no going to xx, no replacing the xxx, walking out of the celebration and going home, etc. We ignore the crying and begging thst follows as best we can, and tell them we can talk when they can do it without screaming or crying, but we don't give in. The interesting thing is that our oldest has gotten really good at revisiting the situation on her own in a couple of days so we have good discussions about why she acted the way she did and how we can jointly prevent repetitions of the situation. Sometimes I lose it and yell, but I practice responses in my head to try to prevent that.

amother

Orchid

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 9:08 am

I am really shocked at the amount of judgemental comments being thrown around here. Calling people abusers? That isn't fair! The way a family chooses to punish their children, apart from out and out abuse, is their choice and will have to deal with the consequences on their own.

An example: my sister uses the "talk it out " method of dealing with her kids. She is gentle, explains things completely, gives time out/ takes things away. Her children walk all over her. They laugh in her face. Clearly this isn't working. She believes all other forms of punishment are 'abuse' because she hated to be yelled at as a kid, hated stern voices, ect.

A former friend is against potching. Instead she yells at her children. Yells and yells, making them cower in a corner, over and over. She believes what she is doing is fine because she doesn't hit her children. She yells like this whether the children spilled milk or were chasing siblings with scissors. They don't know the difference between what a serious offense is and a minor one.

In my eyes both of these are abusive situations. Children need to be taught how to deal with life. In my opinion neither of these women are teaching their children life skills, there are degrees of punishment. We have all dealt with the adult who was never taught life has punishments. They are entitled, rude, believe the whole world revolves around them.

What I am trying to say is that you do what works for YOUR family. You don't have the right to yell abuse and put perverted spins on things when clearly it isn't the case. If coddling your child, sitting and explaining things carefully works for your family, great! If you potch as a last resort, also great! Everyone has the right to choose what is working for their family. Maybe they tried the other methods and spanking is the only thing that worked. Maybe now that parent can try another method. It isn't imamothers job to judge what people do in their private homes.

One more example: My cousin was a rude kid. Her mom gave punishment after punishment and my cousin would laugh and gleefully keep going. Once my aunt was trying to talk and cousin was dancing behind her and making faces (at 15!) and wouldn't stop even when asked to amny times. Finally my aunt turned and smacked cousin right on the butt. Cousin was stunned and meekly left the room. After that aunt had to only look at her and say 'I asked you to stop that' and she would.

amother

Orchid

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 11:20 am

observer wrote:

Orchid amother- One bad parenting approach does not justify another.

There is plenty of good parenting without potching, (the cases you know of personally, notwithstanding.)

The main issue people have is with spanking a teenager, which goes against all parenting advice of any approach. Even the pro-potching approach.

What I was trying to point out is that parenting is not one size fits all. Some teenagers need the threat of a potch, if not an actual one. It is not up to random people to decide for them. A teenager who has the mind to avoid unpleasant punishment will respond the same to the threat of removing a privilege as a threat of a potch. If it works it works. If they are going to defy you and do what they want it is going to happen no matter what the punishment might be. When I was growing up the worst thing was to disappoint my mother. I avoided it like the plague. However if there was something I wanted more than I cared about my mother's feeling I was going to do it. Get it?

I am not saying you should potch a teen, I am saying that I would hope parents would have done their job so when the child is a teen potching is unnecessary.

Yes lots of good parents dont potch but lots of good parents do.!

Iymnok

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Okay so we already know:
Lecturing does not work
Nor does screaming (it looks like an adult temper tantrum)
And hitting looks like it works, but rather it humiliates and scares a child.

Parenting involves effort, creativity, and humor. Relaxation is also very helpful.

chavs

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 2:00 pm

Orchid, there is more to parenting then finding the right way to punish a child. If the child is laughing at the parent or the child doesn't know the difference between danger and accidents there are bigger issues than punishing at stake. It's time to look at what's going on for the kids and for the family rather than bigger punishments. It could be that they need to work on their attachment, it could be that the child or parent has anxieties or a while lot of other things. Hitting is not going to solve those issues, it might frighten or shame the kids into behaving temporarily, but it's nothing more than a plaster over an oozing wound that needs tending some other way.
As sometime else said parenting involves effort, humour etc, it's more than just getting the kids in line and figuring out how to do that, it's about building the next generation, raising human beings.

black sheep

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 2:14 pm

Leora2 wrote:

Your questions strike me as somewhat perverted and leave me feeling somewhat uncomfortable. The discussion has now moved from the theoretical to I'm not even sure what. If you google spanking I'm sure you can find all sorts of smut. My daughter will in no way be a part of that kind of thinking. I am ending this thread.

yes this thread is uncomfortable for a lot of people. for many reasons. I am surprised you have never thought that it was s-xually inappropriate to spank a teenage girl until a poster here brought it up. actually, a few posters have already brought it up, but you have only become uncomfortable after you thought someone was accusing you of s-xually abusing your daughter.

let me explain something about s-xual fetishes for you, leora. in a nutshell, you cannot decide for your daughter what type of fetishes she will have. however, you should know that research shows that fetishes are developed in adolescence, if not earlier. it develops along with s-xual awakening, which happens in the early teenage years.

you should also know that the bottom is a very erogenous zone. it is considered a s-xual area. just like you would never swat your daughter on her breasts, you should equally not swat her on her bottom.

back to the fixation thing, if you spank your daughter, her first s-xual experience was a spanking by her mother. it will always be so. it was so for you as well, which may be the reason you are so uncomfortable discussing it (yet not uncomfortable doing it, ironically.) fetishes are founded in the first s-xual experience a person has. you cannot know what her likes and dislikes will be s-xually, but you can be sure that it will be related to her first experience.

there was a time that spankings were considered the normal form of discipline for children, although a bit less common for teens. perhaps this is why SA is so common. perhaps this is why p-rn is such a thriving business. perhaps this is why we are not a respectful society but rather a shamed and violent society.

perhaps your spanking isn't working the way you think it is.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 2:43 pm

At the risk of sounding preachy, which I will now that I said that, why are we all attacking Leora? That wasn't the purpose of the question or frankly her rather candid and thought out responses.

Everyone has to figure out what works for their family and if we don't agree with her, then so be it. But calling her names and attacking her personally is really not the way to go. I'll also say that no one is going to convince her to change her mind by calling her abusive or worse, a s-xual predator.

It's the three weeks, ladies, and sometimes I think this website fosters more sinas chinam than anything else I read, see or hear. Just something to consider.

Amother so I'm not subject to abuse or rhetoric.