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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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dancingqueen

Fri, Oct 09 2015, 10:37 am

LittleDucky wrote:

I think there are several big differences between the two private religious school systems of Frum and catholic. (Btw, they tried the "threaten to go to public school to get $$" and it semi-worked. But our yeshivos get those same benefits now. Money for attendance and textbooks... But the government said that was the max and they meant it. It wont work again. They can't legally give the money wanted but they could give for those things the government forces them to do. Like attendance...)

But back to my main idea.
1. Our schools are fragmented. Slight differences in hashkafa on the grand scheme of things that stop us from making split offs for cost reasons. They are more unified. So instead of having BY of X and BY of Y, they have "wealthy and full of latest tech expensive school" and "minimalist cost education without frills".

2. Shidduchim. No one will send to cheaper schools that are known for being cheap. They don't have this system- they go off to college and find their own spouses. What preschool you went to doesn't play a part in this.
3. Many schools dont believe in secular education or advanced skills. So how will they work for companies? I think it would be great experience- computers class can be about designing flyers for businesses: real world experience, better job prospects later on etc. but again, many schools even to make tuition cheaper will not go this route. Every boy must be in learning, every girl will be a teacher.
Hmm.

Great post! I think point number 1 also accounts for a lot of other problems in modern day orthodoxy.

33055

Fri, Oct 09 2015, 10:39 am

SRS wrote:

My point is the same. It would create a tremendous amount of animosity. Maybe the financial damage to the district targeted would be different, but you risk upsetting the very voters that can vote for voucher supporting politicians.

Recently a group of Muslim parents went to the district to ask for their holiday to be a school holiday. The district told them, we can't consider it at this point because parents do not have childcare plans (for 2 weeks off). The parents threw a fit, but in the long term, if they are serious about getting their holiday as a day off of school and not just throwing a hissy fit, they should be more than happy to just take their kids out for the day. Upsetting other parents will not win their battle.

Same with us. If we want vouchers, we need to convince the public and the representatives that represent them that vouchers are a win-win. Throwing a fit to disrupt will just upset people.

They will get their off next year if you read between the lines. There wasn't enough time for the other parents to make plans. They are also closing the school for Festivos.

SRS

Fri, Oct 09 2015, 10:45 am

Laiya wrote:

Yes, it's a big problem. But telling people they must be fully responsible for paying their own kids' tuitions contradicts the yeshiva world's endorsement of large family sizes (let's even leave out kollel here). Also, the frum community should feel it has an interest in seeing frum children attend yeshiva.

The yeshiva world send plenty of mixed message. Again, if 75% of Orthodox adults have at least one child in school (I don't know the real number, but it is far higher than in your average tax base), who is supposed to pay?

Laiya wrote:

Tuition is so crushing for middle class families because these families have already been hit with huge tax burdens--a portion of which funds public schools.

There are many types of taxes. . . . my tax burden between FICA, federal, state, and property tax is pretty crushing. But even if I were to receive a 50% rebate on property tax and state tax, I would be unable to cover 50% of the school year. A small tax credit would be nice and helpful, but it isn't much of a solution. Having Jewish orgs take a tax reduction strategy would be lovely, but speaking of mixed messages, as per above, this is where the yeshiva world send out a tremendous mixed marriage. There isn't a government program the chassidish and yeshiva worlds aren't happy to jump on. Increased government funding means increased government burden.

Laiya wrote:

The Catholic model wouldn't work for the reasons Little Ducky listed above, and because attempts to tell people how to give tzedakah don't really work.

Catholic schools do much more than centralizing giving. They also centralize administrative function and open and close schools based on demographic changes. We, of course, prefer to open up a school every time an ousted principal needs a job (harsh, but my point is that we aren't running at optimal).

quote="Laiya"]Aside from government funding, I don't see any other solutions here.[/quote]

We concentrate too much of trying to "solve" the problem. The problem cannot be solved. Now, and certainly in 10 years, not every child who is part of an Orthodox family will be able to get a yeshiva education at the price they think they should pay. BUT we can alleviate the problem and preserve what is worth preserving. Hard to get excited about this message, but to me it is a lot more exciting than talking pipe dreams.

nylon

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 7:07 am

The Catholic school system is not in good financial condition. They're closing schools to deal with deficits. Not all of the schools slated for closure are due to under-enrollment. Costs have risen significantly over past decades at a rate that far outstrips inflation--the proportion of lay teachers is far higher than it once was and even with relatively low salaries compared to the public system, they still have spiraling health costs, pensions, building maintenance, etc to deal with. The cost of a Catholic education has pretty significant variation, too. They're not doing as badly as the yeshiva system, but it's not as terrific as many Jews think it is.

miami85

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 8:04 am

I think that we need to create more "Lakewoods" in that we can "take over" a town and run it to our liking and get away from the high costs of NY

amother

Papaya

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 8:14 am

miami85 wrote:

I think that we need to create more "Lakewoods" in that we can "take over" a town and run it to our liking and get away from the high costs of NY

Because there are no problems with schools in Lakewood?

LittleDucky

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 8:52 am

nylon wrote:

Many of their financial problems stem from two things:'shrinking population (that cares about a catholic education vs any decent education) and.... The Scandal/law suits. They lived "high off the brisket" (to borrow another imamothers copyrighted term) for years. Then one boy after another sued them. I read an article that stated they had to sell buildings to pay for the lawsuits.

But they were doing fine for a long time. They had scholarships, low tuitions (comparably) etc. We should learn from them, including not covering up scandals or doing things that can get us sued as that was a big part of their financial decline.

asp40

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 10:14 am

Just a note on Catholic schools. I believe they rely on nuns for some teaching and the nuns aren't being paid as far as I know.

LittleDucky

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 11:01 am

asp40 wrote:

Just a note on Catholic schools. I believe they rely on nuns for some teaching and the nuns aren't being paid as far as I know.

But all their life expenses are paid by the church (AFAIK). So even if they don't have tons of expenses (they aren't eating out, buying nice clothes or going on vacation) many of our teachers struggle with rent, food, medical needs etc. which is not a problem for nuns.

Belle

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 12:11 pm

One diamond eternity band for a bar mitzvah moma can educate 3 children for a year. No one woke up and decided to give the mama the band. They were asked.

-----------
Seriously, there are some communities where people are given diamonds as tzedaka? Is this for real?

bnm

Sun, Oct 11 2015, 10:58 pm

Basically we have to decide if having a yeshiva education is a right or a privilege. In every other society private school is a luxury. They move around to get into good public school districts or they pay up for private school if they decide thats what they want and can afford.

SRS

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 6:02 am

According to articles I have read, nuns no longer staff schools. Here is an article on some of the challenges Catholics Schools face. . .was written in 2005 before the economic crash: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7258.....lViko

Chayalle

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 6:30 am

bnm wrote:

For boys, I believe it's a right - there's a community responsibility to have Chedarim. I'm on brain freeze, but I recall learning this with sources in the Gemarrah.

Now with girls, it used to be assumed they'd learn from the home, so it's more debatable. R' Aharon Kotler said if Sarah Schenirer hadn't founded BY, there would be no girls for the boys to marry. In the pre-holocaust era, though, those who attended BY had to pay. Many who couldn't afford it did not attend.

However today it's pretty universal in frum communities. In many circles a girl would likely be hindered in Shidduchim if she did not have a BY education.

Personally, I'm feeling great pain that a classmate of my DD's has not yet been accepted to high school, and I've heard it's because they don't pay tuition. On the one hand, the parents are out to lunch, but on the other hand, a kid is suffering. Whose responsibility is it? I know the community is strapped for funds and any school who takes her will have to take all her siblings, and there are lots of them, and likely for free. OTOH the community creates this situation because large families are considered a mitzvah, and here's a family that has way more than they can afford. Whose responsibility is it?

amother

Emerald

Mon, Oct 12 2015, 6:46 am

Chayalle wrote:

This is a problem that affects so many areas.

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