Is non kosher really better than kosher?

zaq

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 9:16 am

amother wrote:

A while ago I heard on the radio that $200 a plate restaurants were getting violations - they found all kinds of horrible things in the back unclean mice trappings etc. Im not saying all the Kosher places are perfect but at least we have mashgichim

I don't know how to tell you this, my friend, but Mashgichim have nothing to do with the cleanliness of the place. The mashgiach is concerned with whether or not the incoming products are kosher, whether the margarine for frying the salami is pareve, whether the owner bought a deep-fryer at a garage sale and hasn't kashered it, and whether or not the chef brought in his cleaver from home.

Kosher eateries get slapped with exactly the same kinds of citations for revolting conditions as tref ones. But because tref eateries outnumber kosher ones by orders of magnitude, the violations columns in the papers are naturally going to have more tref eateries listed. A friend of mine worked in the kitchen at a kosher resort and told me stories that would fry your sheitel. EVERY restaurant kitchen has vermin; it's just a matter of how much and how out of control.

Raisin

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 9:33 am

Amarante wrote:

The issue is that dairy and meat can't be eaten together. Therefore almost all baked goods would be pareve for fancy meals which wpuld typically be fleishig.

This would be the opposite for non kosher where buttery desserts would be served because most normal people don't have rich desserts everyday.

Also even everyday desserts like cookies or brownies are better with butter and most frum cooks wouldn't make them because it's easier to feed and store parve.

Our shul kiddush is milchig and all cakes made for it are made with butter. Cookies I agree are definitely better with butter, brownies I guess so (but I'm not a big brownie fan) but other cakes I really don't think it makes such a huge difference. I have had good pareve chocolate cakes. (my favourite cake is sponge cake which has no oil or fat at all) I don't like buttercream although I do like whipped cream. Its tough making good desserts without cream and cheese though. I have a very thin repertoire of desserts for shabbos since I really dislike pareve cream. We have dutch friends and I am so jealous of them being able to have milchig desserts.

amother

Firebrick

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 9:34 am

gp2.0 wrote:

No, but imagine any recipe you cook and replace the oil with butter or cream. You think it'll taste lighter or heavier?

Cream dishes are heavy and generally wouldn't be eaten regularly.

Butter would generally replace an equivalent amount of oil or margarine in food so it's not necessarily richer or heavier - just better tasting. Think of eggs scrambled in butter or toast buttered with real butter.

pointyshoes

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 3:01 pm

zaq wrote:

I don't know how to tell you this, my friend, but Mashgichim have nothing to do with the cleanliness of the place. The mashgiach is concerned with whether or not the incoming products are kosher, the margarine for frying the salami is pareve, whether the owner bought a deep-fryer at a garage sale and hasn't kashered it, and whether or not the chef brought in his cleaver from home.

Kosher eateries get slapped with exactly the same kinds of citations for revolting conditions as tref ones. But because tref eateries outnumber kosher ones by orders of magnitude, the violations columns in the papers are naturally going to have more tref eateries listed. A friend of mine worked in the kitchen at a kosher resort and told me stories that would fry your sheitel. EVERY restaurant kitchen has vermin; it's just a matter of how much and how out of control.

I feel naive now but EVERY restaurant does? I'm throwing up in my mouth

tichellady

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 3:15 pm

pointyshoes wrote:

I feel naive now but EVERY restaurant does? I'm throwing up in my mouth

I do not think this is true. I have been to restaurants with open kitchens and restaurants where you go through the whole kitchen to use the bathroom. I'm sure this is a problem at some places, but not at all kosher restaurants.

Amarante

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 4:03 pm

Not every restaurant has filthy conditions. You can look up violations on line.

In general when I've checked just for kicks, there is a distortion tell high percentage of what wild be called dives. Expensive restaurants are generally pretty clean because they have the manpower and they also know regulations and health requirements. Also when a high end restaurant gets a bad mark,cit generally becomes news so restaurants will avoid that.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 6:56 pm

zaq wrote:

Comparing apples and bicycles here. Heinz ketchup isn't tref unless someone's extreme right-wing religious politics deem anything tref if it sports an (U). So you're comparing, not tref to kosher, but brand-name to brand "also-ran". And even in comparing brand names to generics, which is what many heimish brands are, the brand name isn't necessarily always better. It may be, but it may not be.

In case you weren't aware, few heimish brands do their own manufacturing. They have products prepared for them by companies that do private-label work. Check the labels: chances are they say "prepared FOR" or "packed FOR" Heimishfoodscompany. FOR, not BY. For the "super-kosher" runs, the equipment may or may not be kashered and there may be or may not be extra kosher supervision. But the same factory may be producing Gefen, Yourneighborhoodsupermarketchainbrand and umpty-ump other labels.

And I'll tell you another manufacturing secret: sometimes the brand name manufacturer also packages the identical product for a private label, usually for a very large client like a major retail chain.

Many heimish brands do their kosher runs with subpar manufacturers. They cannot usually afford the better factories as they have the added costs of full kashering, full mashgichim temidim. This is not just my personal observation, someone in the food industry has told me so. Of course there are exceptions.
But often large chain store off brands will have high quality packaged goods that mirror that of the brand name. How I miss pathmark. Their America's choice brand had dijon mustard that tastes just like gray poupon's, barbecue sauce like kc masterpiece, Italian dressing and other and I could buy them for a dollar a piece.

geulah papyrus

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 7:00 pm

A thousand times yes. Non-kosher is better.
I was never a fast food person, but I cannot tell you how much I miss trying various street foods when I travel, and going into any non-kosher restaurant from other cultures. I miss marinating chicken in yogurt when I cook Indian, I miss basting turkeys in butter (and steaks in butter, omg,) I miss fresh (and creative) sausage, and a zillion other delicious ways of cooking and eating. I struggle with this part of staying on the derech.

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 8:16 pm

Some non kosher things are crappy. Some are yummy. Some kosher things are crsppy, some are yummy.

I miss lobster and cheeseburgers but I can cook Asian almost as well as if I was born in Hong Kong.

It's like everything.

So, in general, I know that dairy restaurants suck most of the time, but MINE is regularly blowing people's low expectations away!

Do I miss some things? Yes. But as much as I love lobster, when I still ate it, some was better than others. I'd rather eat an incredibly well prepared piece of sea bass or salmon than eat lobster that isn't awesome.

Ya kin me?

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 8:19 pm

geulah papyrus wrote:

My Frum bt friend just made himself a tandoor and last week he made naan and tandoori chicken that was just as good as the ones I used to eat out. I've made bresaola which was just as good as prosciutto, just not porky. I cook Asian like a native.you need some foodie friends!

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 8:23 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

In Israel - it is very common to eat the hind part of beasts. The reason Ashkenazim in Chul don't eat it is because they were not knowledgeable about doing nikur (kashering them properly) and they had a large market among non-Jews, in Muslim countries there was not a big market for meat that Jews considered non kosher and Jews would do nikur routinely. Most Jews I know in Israel eat hind quarters regardless of their origin (I'm guessing ultra chareidi Ashkenazim don't).

Mmmmm. Sinta. Ironically my non Jewish friend things rib steak is the best. I LOVE a well aged New York steak. But still, a well aged, well prepared rib steak is awesome.

tichellady

Fri, Jul 22 2016, 8:35 pm

I am sure it's much easier and more fun to not keep kosher. I am a foodie and can't imagine what it would be like if I could eat anything I wanted. The only time I struggle with kashrut is when we are traveling and it is really hard to come by decent kosher food. Tuna and rice cakes is not what I want to eat on vacation but I also don't only want to vacation in Jewish cities or spend my vacation cooking. Sigh..: if only this was the biggest problem in my life 😀
My non orthodox family does say that they prefer kosher chicken to non kosher chicken (maybe because it's saltier)

Seas

Sat, Jul 23 2016, 10:14 pm

andrea levy wrote:

Can you please post your bresaola recipe.