Shabbos in Europe | Imamother

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Shabbos in Europe

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amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 9:59 am

I will be traveling to Europe in October. Please advise a safe place to go for Shabbos within 4 hours of Munich.

Thank you

Elanachka91

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 10:03 am

London ( believe it is a 2 hour flight - Golders Green/hendon would be a lovely area.

amother

Ecru

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 10:07 am

Prague is a 4 hour drive, less by train. There's a kosher hotel or you can buy food in advance from Chabad. And of course, daven in the Maharal's shul.

chmom

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 10:15 am

Zürich is about 3.5 hours away by train. The IRG ( yekkische community) have a very active hachnassos orchim program.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 11:41 am

chmom wrote:

Zürich is about 3.5 hours away by train. The IRG ( yekkische community) have a very active hachnassos orchim program.

Zürich sounds interesting. Would you travel by train or car? The recent publicity of attacks on trains scares me somewhat. I am hoping someone who has actual knowledge of how safe things are can advise me.

How would I get in touch with hachnassos orchim program? This is one possibility.

My husband would like to go to Prague. I was thinking of Venice, but he says the drive is too long at 5.5 hours. I will discuss London with him. Any other ideas?

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 01 2016, 9:17 am

There have been attacks everywhere, including shootings in America, stabbings in NY, an Israeli shop attacked can't remember where (the owner turned to be Arab). So unfortunately yes also in Europe.

That said, if you need an eruv look into Antwerp, some parts of London, Strasbourg, Venice.
If you need the biggest choice, Parisian area has around (kah) 350 000 people in many neighbourhoods (I'm in one, myself).
Rome is gorgeous.
Most heimish would be Antwerp Zurich Strasbourg
If you need eruv and like more out of the box look into La chaud de fond and Reims.

Contact people beforehand if you want hospitality.
Some places will force you to have your papers which is obviously impossible for shomer shabbes if you didn't apply beforehand to go to shul (not sure where - the stories I've heard were not in my country and I didn't remember the place).

Raisin

Thu, Sep 01 2016, 10:50 am

If you are willing to fly that opens up lots more possibilities. Ryanair and easy jet and other low cost airlines have cheap flights everywhere. But flying usually takes a lot longer then the flight - getting to the airport, security, checking in etc. Trains or driving are definitely quicker.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Sep 01 2016, 3:11 pm

Ruchel wrote:

We don't need an eruv.

Strasbourg looks interesting. There was a stabbing there only a couple of weeks ago. Crying

I am not sure if my husband would go there. Thank you for the ideas.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Sep 01 2016, 3:14 pm

Raisin wrote:

I am afraid of trains and rather not drive. I am considering splitting the our party in half and flying into the city where we will spend Shabbos and letting my husband and one other take a train or fly to meet us. I am open for suggestions.

Thank you

Lilibet

Wed, Sep 07 2016, 6:39 am

Munich. Best, safest city in Europe for a Shabbos. I use it as a safe and delightful place for a layover Shabbat. It is wonderfully convenient: great air and rail connections, a lovely kosher restaurant, walkable hotel with keys right there (have also used Air B & B) and a shul, of course. All of this is right in the city center in an extremely well-secured plaza. Security is discrete, but it would be truly divviclt to access those buildings, or even enter the plaza with out being stopped. Germany builds the security into the design. Elegant vehicle obstacles, bullet-proof glass in what look like a lovely glassed-fronted restaurant and Jewish center, all built with a design that lets guards easily scan everyone who is coming or going.

This city itself is as safe as any in Europe can be these days. I feel far safer in Munich than in Manchester, London, Stockholm, Vienna, Zurich, Amsterdam, Strasbourg, Copenhagen or Paris - where the security is makeshift and the Jewish targets (kosher markets, restaurants, most shuls, dense Jewish neighborhoods) are extremely vulnerable. (I have spent Shabbos in each of the cities I mention since the Hypermarche/Charlie Hebdo shooting, and Munich is the safest)

I should qualify that by saying that when I travel with my husband, sons, or grandsons, they wear ball caps or "neutral-looking" hats. It has been many years since we have walked around Europe looking Jewish. I know and respect men who wear a kapote in the streets of a European city, but I cannot regard it as a safe think to do.

That said, the community is not large, just well-endowed and well-appointed, the kosher groceries are a bit of a schlep from the area where the shul and restaurant are located, but the restaurant is usually open on Shabbat and can provide food to your hotel on the rare occasions when they are not open.

Munich, of course, is a magnificent city (palaces, treasure rooms filled medieval royal jeweled objet, amazing parks, great art museums, the world's best science museum: it's not just kid stuff. For your Shabbos walk, I recommend the English Garden (a large public park) and a stop to watch the surfers on the small stream that flows through downtown Munich.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Sep 07 2016, 8:40 am

Ruchel wrote:

Most heimish would be Antwerp Zurich Strasbourg
..

Stamford Hill area in London is very heimish. and larger than the Antwerp community There is a hotel in the centre of the area. There are also many hachnosas orchim options too.
Shuls, groceries, restaurants/take aways are all on hand as well as excellent transport links to get you to any sightseeings etc.

Ruchel

Sat, Sep 10 2016, 4:08 pm

Strasbourg is safer than most capitals. Yes there was a stabbing. In other "random" places like Milan, too. Still I regard Milan as safer than capitals.

There is no problem wearing a kippa in LOndon/Paris/Antwerp wherever... If you plan to go slumming, do not wear a kippa. Most "popular" but not dejected neighbourhoods are ok, be it Paris, Antwerp, Rome... in our extended experience Smile

In doubt you ask a local, not someone who only knows of the medias. Please don't let "what sells" spoil your vacay. When I traveled to Germany and Belgium people even thought good to send me scary pms Exploding anger

and everything was OK

mirah2

Sat, Sep 10 2016, 7:48 pm

I should that if you are considering London (either Stamford Hill or Golders Green/Hendon), you need to factor in travel time by taxi/public transport to those areas and not just the flight time. Imho, 4 hours is not enough to fly from Munich and arrive in either of those areas, it took us at least 2 hours from landing at London Heathrow to arriving in Hendon via London Underground the other day...

ETA: we also spent Pesach in Antwerp a month after the Brussels Airport/metro attacks. There were armed soldiers patrolling the city and the Jewish area in particular, every morning we had soldiers standing right by the main shul gate itself. Yes, it felt strange. But after a while you get used to it and b"H there were no actual incidents. The sad truth is that there is risk everywhere you go, neither Europe, America or Israel is safe, so I wouldn't let that be too much of a factor when deciding where to go (although some areas like Malmo in Sweden or Istanbul/Turkey I would rule out because the risk level is palpably higher...)

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Sep 11 2016, 3:19 am

Just wanted to add that most shul and jewish places in europe are guarded by the local army men.
We live here so it is normal for us bit for someone coming from America or another part of the world might get scared or alarmed see in this.
Also it's not something to say this place is heavily guarded so don't go there...... it's the norm here!

rainbow dash

Sun, Sep 11 2016, 4:14 am

Also if you have kids that dont walk try to go somewhere that has an eruv

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 11 2016, 7:36 am

I will never understand the "it's guarded don't go". So what? You prefer not guarded? rofl... some places like iirc the great synagogue of Rome, is guarded for 3 decades.
My husband visited kehilot in America and some also had the cops in front of the school as well as crazy security locks and rehearsals.

Remember eruv is an oddity not a norm so plan accordingly. Same for hotel with shabbes key, stairs... how high your room is - btdt

May I remind that there have been several stabbings in NY? But I understand it's always scarier when not on your turf (I'm terrified in israel for ex). So: In the end you can only choose to go or not.

Mirah Thumbs Up

Lilibet

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 7:49 pm

Amsterdam has an euv and is a surprisingly comfortable place to spend Shabbat, lovely, welcoming community - albeit not as large as Strasbourg.

On the other hand, French security situation is not good and Belgium is even worse. Unguarded restaurants, kosher stores, shuls - I feel like a target in Paris or Strasbourg just buying groceries.

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 6:19 am

I felt very oppressed by the atmosphere in the Jewish area in Amsterdam. Like really us against them and everyone suspicious... lo alenu.
In Paris I feel the military is around (they turn, that's the new plan, so you can't predict where they are bh) and even safer in Strasbourg because it's OOT. Goes to show, it's personal...

Amsterdam is definitely small, though not lacking per se especially for shabbes.

Lilibet

Sun, Sep 18 2016, 10:15 am

You do have a point about Strasbourg, the most welcoming, haimish community of any size on the continent - to a wide range of (Torah) Jews. In part because they don't get many orthodox tourists/travelers. It is a lovely place to spend a few days, or Shabbos.

What worries me is the almost non-existent security. Sure, soldiers with automatic weapons patrol the neighborhood - but - and this is a tremendous BUT - they are under standing orders not to shoot. The neighborhood is so vibrant, kids running ome form kohser groceries txitstzits flying, Frum middle-aged women on bikes (Ionly place I have ever seen middle aged women peddling past, in perfectly coifed sheitlach, looking as though they are commuting home from the office) It is wonderful. Playgrounds filled with frum kids on Shabbos afternoon, safe enough that kids can be sent out to play under the supervision of a 10 or 12-year-old sibling. Kosher cafes with walls of windows open. This is the way life should be. the way Jewish life in France used to be only a couple of years ago.

But with the current wave of attacks in France and elsewhere - it feels madly irresponsible.

Amsterdam has no visible security in the frum neighborhood, but, like Vienna, it does have that wonderful eruv. I should add that when I travel with my husband, sons, they wear "parve" hats, and I wear a hat - none of us walks in Europe while looking Jewish. I respect people who dress in an identifiable Jewish manner, but I don't do it.

That said, a few months ago I needed a Shabbos layover near a major European airport - and I chose Munich.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 2:58 pm

I understand what you say. I guess I'm fine with this level of security personally. It is also what is taking place in my town. And yes, there have been soldiers or cops shooting when needed, lo alenu/ bh (?)

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