Feeling disconnected on simchas torah...

amother

Ginger

Tue, Oct 25 2016, 11:36 pm

The subject says it all.
I'm not a small talk person - I've asked a few other women what they like about watching the menfolk dance (and get drunk. total turn off but that's a different conversation...) and they all said they like schmoozing with their friends in shul. I'm not a fan of that. and I really really don't like watching the men dance.
It gives me this strong resentful feeling that I'm a woman and there's no way that we celebrate simchas torah other than by watching men! I get so frustrated - I'm ffb and think I've always felt this to some extent (although as a teen, my friends were my life and I was happy to schmooze with them and discuss the good looking boys. Now that I'm married it gets less fun every year.)
I'm not a feminist by any stretch of imagination! (believe it or not) BUT I would love to know - are there shuls that the women dance (women only of course)?? Do you feel this way too? If I tried to start something in my town (not saying where yet, it depends on everyones reactions!! Yes, I'm a total scaredy cat!) will I be shunned for life?! Is there something wrong with wanting more? I feel so sad on simchas torah, disappointed, alone and disconnected from torah and hashem. there's got to be more.

seeker

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 1:49 am

You could stay home and read something inspirational... if that's your thing.

Do you have children? If not, do you expect to? I find that once people have children they get busy enough to not have to worry too much about things like this. Not saying it doesn't bother anyone, just that there's enough else to do that it doesn't need to be such a major issue.

amother

Red

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 1:56 am

seeker wrote:

That's interesting. I found it just the opposite. It's one thing to be excluded from the dancing and just hang out with friends. But when you have to explain to your daughter why only men get to celebrate the Torah, it's a whole different story.

seeker

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 2:05 am

I think daughters pick up on their mother's feelings. If the daughter is especially pulled to dancing specifically, then sure she can go ahead and find an outlet for that. But most of the girls I see with happy role models don't really ask that question with much weight. Maybe they'll ask it but they won't be invested in it enough to matter. It's when they see the men having fun while the women are boring that they'll feel they're missing something. In the shul where I was today, the women did not dance but they looked overall like they were having a fine time - yes, mostly shmoozing. But plenty of girls and women like to do just that. I'm actually not a big shmoozer IRL but I enjoyed it anyway, I don't do it so often so I'm not burned out of socializing, and the people around me were having a good time and being very inclusive so I went ahead and had a good time with them. In retrospect the conversation was pretty inane but on the other hand I had a pleasant cheerful yomtov experience. The men might have been appearing to have more fun but when you think about it I'm not sure I'd rather spend my yomtov getting all exhausted and sweaty like that. I don't think I'd have had the stamina for more than one or two lively hakafos, and then where would I be? Either shuffling around pathetically or on the side shmoozing like the ladies! Maybe even feeling guilty for it because in some places men aren't expected to sit around shmoozing like the ladies.

amother

Red

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 10:23 am

I don't know what it means to ask a question without much weight. What happens is that girls internalize the message that they are spectators and not participants in this religion. Their mothers may be perfectly fine with the role, so no one's complaining, but girls do notice.

gold21

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 11:18 am

OP, never apologize for your feelings. Not everyone has to agree with you- I myself don't have to agree with you- but there is absolutely nothing wrong with your feelings. You want to dance and feel like you're part of the main event on Simchas Torah. Ok, seems reasonable enough to me. Yes, you're entitled to have feelings that differ from what we are "supposed" to feel.... Tongue Out

It's not like it's such a far-out idea or anything. Some people enjoy the easy relaxed schmoozing, and some would secretly love if a mechitza were set up so they could dance. All good. Tongue Out

Last edited by gold21 on Wed, Oct 26 2016, 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Black

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 11:37 am

There was a similar thread recently:

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....05715

I'll repost the part of my answer to the OP that is also applicable to you:

"As for Simchas Torah being a man's holiday, it doesn't have to be that way. There are many shuls that have programming for the women during hakafos. Some shuls have a shiur for women by women, some shuls have a siyyum, and some shuls even have hakafos for women.

Many years ago my mom got so fed up with the women in her shul just sitting and gossiping during hakafos that she decided to do something about it. As soon as Y"T was over she organized a siyyum tanach for the following year. She checked with the rav of the shul and made sure that a room would be available. Then she wrote up a list of every parsha and sefer (some bigger ones were split up) and started publicizing the event. Soon she had more volunteers to learn than sefarim available. On Simchas Torah all the women who learned came together to make a siyyum and a few women spoke briefly and they all enjoyed the experience and signed up again the next year and the next. It's been quite a few years and the siyyum is still an annual occurrence. Now some of the women learn with their daughters and it's really quite nice. And even the longest, hardest sefer can be tackled in a year. Maybe you can start a similar initiative in your neighborhood."

Just to update this, when I spoke to my mom on motzei Y"T she told me that over 60 women and girls had come to the siyyum and those who wanted to speak spike well. She already has many requests for next year.

amother

Rose

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 11:55 am

Simchas Torah was odd this year. I'm in a new community. There was actually a Torah on the women's side but probably a maximum of 2 dozen women were actually interested in dancing with it. Less than half of those actually wanted to hold it. Several women (like me) stood by the mechitza watching the men dance, which was nice. The majority of women just stood around shmoozing, totally detached from anything going on. Very weird. I liked our old community where the women did not have a Torah, but we pretty much all danced and felt very much a part of the celebrations.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 7:49 pm

OP, I relate to how you feel. Luckily our current shul has a mechitzah and the women have two sifrei Torah to dance with on our side.

This year when I saw my eldest DD holding and dancing with the Torah my heart exploded with joy and nachas. Seeing her surrounded by her classmates from school all with so much ruach gave me great hope and faith for the future of the Jewish people.

amother

Rose

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 8:36 pm

amother wrote:

I know my opinion will be less then popular but I must say this that" women are not allowed to dance with the Torah" -according to Halacha. Sorry to take away the positivity here, maybe find a different way to feel positive.

Have a source? I'd never seen it before this year, but if it's going on in so many orthodox shuls I don't know how it can be against halacha.

mille

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

As with all things, ask your LOR - clearly this is not so cut and dry, as I have been to three separate orthodox shuls that allow women to dance with the Torah on Simchat Torah, and I can think of many many more that allow women to carry the Torah into the women's section on Shabbat. I'm talking typical (Modern) Orthodox shuls.

It may not be your brand of Orthodoxy, but Orthodoxy is a wonderful tapestry of observance. Let's not put down someone else's observance because it does not jive with what you've been taught.

amother

Red

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

By now you must have noticed that in a group like this, we live with various legitimate halachic opinions. It's an educational problem across the board - left and right, in my experience - that so many women are told that "the halacha is x" when in fact it's xy and z. Add to that the problem that lots of girls on the right don't know or can't access original sources, so they cannot defend their positions with anything more than righteous indignation. That's imamother in a nutshell.