Do girls "need" a "shem kodesh"?

sweetpotato

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 5:13 pm

This is a spinoff from a few threads in the baby names section focused on the appropriateness of Yiddish and Ladino/Arabic names. Basically, the question has come up whether it's OK to give a name that is solely Yiddish or Ladino/Judeo-Arabic (or another Jewish vernacular) in origin. Names like Fraidy, Raizel, Mushka, Golda, etc. (Unfortunately I'm not so familiar with Ladino names, but feel free to add some to the list!)

I'm asking specifically about girls' names because from my limited knowledge of Jewish naming practices throughout history, I believe there is a stronger tradition that a boy should have a Hebrew/Tanachi name ("shem kodesh"), and then also possibly a "kinnui," in the vernacular (so, traditionally Yiddish/Ladino/etc.) Hence the common double names for men. The idea being that a boy davka needs a Hebrew name to be called up to the Torah, etc. But it seems like it's much more common for girls to just have vernacular Jewish names.

I'm wondering if historically there was the same concept for girls, or if you think there should be. Does anyone know if any sources about this, both halachic/hashkafic or ethnographic?

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 12:51 am

I have never heard that it is more acceptable/common for boys to have jewish names than girls.
I grew up with 99% of my friends only have jewish/hebrew names. Im talking about girls.

I also know guys who have only english names and only use the hebrew name they were given at their brit to be called up to thetorah.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 8:35 am

Absolutely, OP.
OUAT many girls all around 'only' had a Yiddish, Judeo Arabic, Ladino, Italki (add your own fav Wink

) name. But it was considered a shem kodesh, at least in the recent centuries.
Some men also, though fewer, only had this.

I know of a rav with only Messod, for example.

sweetpotato

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 9:27 am

Ruchel, do you mean that girl definitely do "need" Hebrew-origin name in addition, if they only have a Jewish vernacular name? Or, that a Jewish vernacular name, even if it's not Hebrew/Tanachi origin, can function as a "shem kodesh"?

Shabbatiscoming--I'm drawing a distinction between "Jewish names" and "Hebrew names." I think it's clear that Jews should have Jewish names; that's one of the reasons we were redeemed from mitzrayim. And I don't think anyone can say a name like Gittel isn't obviously a Jewish name. So my question is rather whether a girl specificially needs a name from L"K. My understanding is that there *is* a concept that boys should have a name from Hebrew, but it seems very common (as Ruchel pointed out) for girls to have just had Jewish names from whatever vernacular language.

I guess maybe I should make a poll and ask how many women who have a Yiddish or Ladino name have ONLY that name, or if they have a Hebrew-based name in addition.

I'm asking both because I think the topic of Jewish names is really interesting, and because I'm expecting a baby soon IYH and if it's a girl, she'll be named for my husband's great-grandmother who, as far as anyone knows, only had Yiddish names.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 9:29 am

No they don't need Hebrew my own dds don't Smile

Nowadays the numbers are skewed as many want Hebrew for identity reason or a more Zionistic reason. But, say, if you take 90 year old frum raised ladies all around, you'll get a good picture.

(while I also think there is a need for JEWISH name, I notice some eidot think differently for girls as they don't read the Torah at shul/aren't called up).

This will interest:

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoF......html

http://www.jewishgen.org/datab.....e.htm

kollel wife

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:16 am

I am from an Askenazik background.
My grandmother's family is Hungarian. They came to the US in the early 1900s. Not after WWII.

The girls only had Yiddish names and the boys Yiddish and Hebrew also - with the same meaning in order TO BE CALLED UP TO THE TORAH. That's what my mother always said.

So Leib Hersh is Aryeh Tzvi.
Leib is a lion and Hersh is a deer (as are Aryeh and Tzvi respectively)

She also told me they used to called tzizis, arbah kanfos OR a lev tu'dekel - is that right or is it harts tu'dekel - any yiddish speaker do they use this phrase today?

Scrabble123

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:21 am

Many ultra frum women in Europe rarely (if ever) used even a Yiddish name let alone a Hebrew one. Even in the ultra frum most extreme Munkatch many women went by Hungarian names, even between themselves. Their father's probably called them by their Hebrew names, if they had one.... I know someone who will not give Yiddish names because his personal belief is that they are not any more "Jewish" than an English name because many are related to the vernacular of the time (think Aiga, Charna, Basha, etc. etc.). I think that parents should name their children as they please, in whatever language they find appealing.

Poster above: hartz tzeedekel would mean a cover of the heart. I never heard anyone call tzitzis that, but I guess it's possible that your gm did.....

spring13

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:29 am

I think that these days, there are quite a number of boys with a Jewish name that isn't necessarily L"K. I know I have ancestors named Schachne, and I don't think they had another name with that. I'm sure I've heard guys called to the Torah as Velvel or Feivel. For whatever reason, the distinctions have blurred, perhaps because the language of vernacular names has changed, making the old kinnuim seem more Jewish in comparison.

kollel wife

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:50 am

To scrabble123 - yes I know it means cover of the heart - but I recall her saying leib tzudekkel or similar.
I have to ask my mother. Do other people say arba kanfos also? We just say tzizis but I recall her using that name too.

Although my family is American from the early 1900s maybe even late 1800s, I think we must have been originally chassidishe - not sure.

Scrabble123

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:59 am

spring13 wrote:

Shachne is usually Shalom Shachna.
Velvel is usually Zev. There were a few men with strictly Yiddish names, but that was usually because many people were uneducated about what was Yiddish and what was Lashon Kodesh or because the relative the child was named for went strictly by a Yiddish name.
I know that someone was named after a grandfather Hirsch and their Rov told them that they should still name the child Tzvi (or Tzvi Hirsch)...

Also, there is nothing Chassidish about calling tzitzis "hartz tzeedekel." Almost all Jews spoke Yiddish in those times (even the secular ones)............. Many people were Chassidish but many were Oberlandish, Litvish, etc. etc. Speaking Yiddish did not equal Chassidish like it often does in the USA

summer0808

Thu, Jan 12 2017, 12:59 pm

leib means the neshoma as in leben/life. so Leib tzudekel would mean neshomo covering. hungarian chasidish here, never heard of that expression but Arbe kanfos, sure! it's the tzitzis also talis kuten (small talis) as opposed to the 'talis'.

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 12 2017, 4:15 pm

A child was given a "street name" in some communities for daily use and a Shem kadosh for kadosh situations.

Another above, tell us your name and we may be able to define it and give meaning to you!