Kids spending Shabbos with non-frum dad?

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 6:19 pm

That sounds so sad for you. Sad

We have kind of the opposite. STBX loves the kids a ton. They have a very warm relationship and I'm sure this divorce is going to be murder on everyone. But he has total disdain for Torah and Judaism. He is undecided whether he is an atheist or not but even if he does believe there is a God he definitely does not believe in any religion. He thinks we're all brainwashed fools for keeping Shabbos and he's upset that his kids are being raised like that but he realizes that that's just a consequence of having kids before he went OTD and he'll just have to live with that.

The only reason he's agreeing to kosher is because he feels he can do it without inconveniencing himself. As soon as something's uncomfortable for him, we're back to "why should I have to do this stupidity that I don't believe in" - "because we all want our religious kids to have a positive relationship with you" - this is going to happen many more times before this mediation is over. Just wait until we get to talking about schools. Exploding anger

amother

Aquamarine

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 11:26 pm

I am divorced and keep shabbos and kashrus only for my kids. They live with me and we do everything and keep everything. Shabbos, kiddush, shul, meals, etc. When they are at their dad's house, I get a break from all that. They are young teens and have no idea. I keep it for them because they are happy with their frum lives and don't need change and I don't need a custody drama.

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 11:35 pm

amother wrote:

That's really big of you. I wish STBX could be mature like that. It must be so hard for you especially since they live with you all the time, but you're right that change and drama would not be fair to them.

If you're able to pull that off I feel even more annoyed at STBX for being so immature about this. We're talking about once in a while and only the outward, in-your-face things.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 2:34 am

amother wrote:

Kol hakavod to you. You are the mother and doing what's truly best for your children.
Can father's do the same?

amother

Salmon

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 2:55 am

The thing is that It doesn't just stop there.
Children staying with their otd dad for shabbos includes teens as well who may adapt to his environment and pull out their phone at their shabbos table in front of the younger siblings....
And for such type of unpredicted incidents we have neither control or even the awareness of w hats going on there unless the younger children tell us.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 6:34 am

You can't control but you can start with some kind of agreement.

Not going to have issues with tends and young children because they are all going and close in age. But even as far as dad is concerned we need to start somewhere. I can't control everything that happens in his home but I also can't just send them with no plan. And once he agrees to something it's technically enforceable in court. Obviously I'm not going to start any court drama over this but what I mean is that an agreement is real.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 8:13 am

amother wrote:

The agreement for staying over shabbos should ideally be that the children have shabbos how they are used to it and that he please comply to it in order not to confuse them.
Would he agree to That?
We can't be completely in control of what he's doing as he is an adult....
How old are your children?

amother

Indigo

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 9:43 am

My friends send only for week days. As for the Shabbat part they send to their mother in law's and the children's father is there.
A lot of OTD people I have to say, don't care about family , they care about themselves. The kids will smell it, if that's what type of guy he is. At least he is decent and lets them be religious and stuff.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 10:23 am

I think we can balance it with most Shabbosim with me but I doubt it would be all. And I'm sure they'd want to spend some long holiday weekends or the like.

The kids are little little. No babies because this has been going on a couple of years but they are too little to stick up for themselves or explain what they want or keep Shabbos with no support.

I'd be willing to send them with him to the ILs but I highly doubt he would. It's something we could discuss so thanks for the idea. Location is not great but for once in a while I could see it working and it would be a nice way for the ILs to see the kids too, without me having to be the one shlepping them. The issue is that DH has hang-ups with his family the way he has hang-ups with religion.

He happens to care a LOT about the children, he is a very loving father, he just has these emotional stuff going on that gets in the way. He does not display negative emotions to the kids but it affects his actions which affect them indirectly - like him avoiding Shabbos and yom tov and then they miss him and get upset because they are taught to expect a Tatty in certain roles. Of course we've had to adjust those expectations but I'm just giving an example of how his junk affects them even though he doesn't directly show his negative emotions to them.

Anyway I'm going to put a hold on discussing this with him and see what each of us says and feels the next time we talk about it.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 2:50 pm

This sounds like such a difficult situation, OP. I'll be honest, I don't think it's fair to send your kids to your STBXH if he's not keeping Shabbos. Keeping Shabbos is as much a habit as anything else. Kids need to do it week in and week out. And they need support when they are doing it.

I think you and your STBXH need to sit down and think out what a Shabbos is going to be like. Will he be getting home early enough on Friday afternoon? What will he and the kids be doing Friday night? Is he thinking that he's going to watch Netflix with the kids? That's certainly not fair to them if they are religious kids. Does he plan to use the computer / TV / smartphone himself? If so, why? Isn't this supposed to be about quality time with the kids?

Will he set the lights beforehand with a timer, or is he planning to shut the lights when he puts the kids to bed? Will the lights be kept on in the bathroom? Who will say Shema with the kids? (This is a problem for every night.) How will he get up the kids Shabbos morning? Does he plan to take them to shul? Will there be a shul where he will be living? Will he get up in time to get them dressed for shul and take them to shul? If not, how is he planning to spend Shabbos morning? How is he going to occupy them? Will he make kiddush at lunch? Is he planning to cook on Shabbos for them, or will he warm up food on a hot plate? How will he occupy them on a long Shabbos afternoon? Will he arrange play dates for them? Will he be living in an area where there are kids for your kids to play with?

Perhaps, just perhaps, thinking out a custody Shabbos in excruciating detail will help your STBXH realize how much he owes your kids in terms of his observance.