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-> Parenting our children
-> Preschoolers
sky
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Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:57 pm
amother wrote: | Yup ... Exactly a few months ago I was stuck in a majior traffic jam coming home from work
So I stopped to look around a jewlry knick knack store
There was a nice girl working there who looked like your garden vareity non Jewish girl from Howell
We got to talking as she was very friendly
Turns out she was really jewish and went to BK for hs.
Tragically, she has been living with a hispanic bf for several years who she claims treats her exceptionaly well. She says she left yiddishkeit completely and told me that if her bf decided to convert to judaism she would leave him.
Her own family has all but disowned her..
Very very sad..since I grew up way oot I don't look frum so these kidsfeel comfortable talking to me |
I know a really nice girl who went to Lakewood HS who is living with her non Jewish bf in Lakewood. Its so sad for so many reasons and there are so so so so many underlying reasons why it happened that it is impossible to point to one reason. In her case I highly doubt tights were even in the equation at all.
Eta. And I went to an oot by were we had no sock rules at all a girl had a baby with a local convenience worked. It's hard to blame the cause on tights when we didn't wear them.
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amother
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Thu, Feb 23 2017, 8:42 pm
I don't get the whole tights thing honestly. When a kid is 3 and wearing a skirt I understand it a little. But when they're 15 and wearing a long uniform skirt??? Why is it anyone's business if they're wearing knee socks or tights?? I went to good ole prospect, don't think this was ever even discussed. Whatever. Put leggings on the poor kid or get a "skort" from old navy. NEXT....
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marina
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Thu, Feb 23 2017, 8:51 pm
I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, I don't think making your kid wear tights is necessarily cruel, assuming there's no sensitivity etc. Cruel is a strong word best left for people who beat their children, sell them, etc. There are plenty of wonderful moms who enforce tights in the summer for little girls.
That said, I think mandating tsnius to that extent for girls that young contributes to the objectification of frum girls. Their bodies are suddenly erva? At 3? If a little girl's body must be covered up to protect the men around her, how is that not implicitly acknowledging pedohelia as normal? If a 3 year old's legs are provocative, why shouldn't a guy be provoked if he sees one with uncovered legs?
And it just gets worse from there. Our girls grow up thinking that their entire self worth is tied into how well they cover up themselves. How can that be healthy?
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amother
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:13 am
[quote="sky"]I know a really nice girl who went to Lakewood HS who is living with her non Jewish bf in Lakewood. Its so sad for so many reasons and there are so so so so many underlying reasons why it happened that it is impossible to point to one reason. In her case I highly doubt tights were even in the equation at all.
Eta. And I went to an oot by were we had no sock rules at all a girl had a baby with a local convenience worked. It's hard to blame the cause on tights when we didn't wear them.[/q
uote] most pple in Lakewood do not make their kids wear tights at a young age. Its pretty much a chassidish thing. I live in lkwd for over 30 years and barely see little girls wearing tights in the summer. The high school u mentioned is also not yeshivish so if the girl is off its probably for other reasons. Theres a whole movement of these kids. Not only in lakewood.
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amother
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:17 am
amother wrote: | Eta. And I went to an oot by were we had no sock rules at all a girl had a baby with a local convenience worked. It's hard to blame the cause on tights when we didn't wear them.[/q
uote] most pple in Lakewood do not make their kids wear tights at a young age. Its pretty much a chassidish thing. I live in lkwd for over 30 years and barely see little girls wearing tights in the summer. The high school u mentioned is also not yeshivish so if the girl is off its probably for other reasons. Theres a whole movement of these kids. Not only in lakewood. |
Yes I was kind of scratching my head about that one. In Lakewood, the rule was wearing socks until 6th grade. (Now it's 3rd).
However there are some extremely yeshivish families who do make their daughters wear tights at 3. My family was one, and I have an uncle who makes his 3 year old daughters wear tights too...
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imeinu
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:22 am
marina wrote: | I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, I don't think making your kid wear tights is necessarily cruel, assuming there's no sensitivity etc. Cruel is a strong word best left for people who beat their children, sell them, etc. There are plenty of wonderful moms who enforce tights in the summer for little girls.
That said, I think mandating tsnius to that extent for girls that young contributes to the objectification of frum girls. Their bodies are suddenly erva? At 3? If a little girl's body must be covered up to protect the men around her, how is that not implicitly acknowledging pedohelia as normal? If a 3 year old's legs are provocative, why shouldn't a guy be provoked if he sees one with uncovered legs?
And it just gets worse from there. Our girls grow up thinking that their entire self worth is tied into how well they cover up themselves. How can that be healthy? |
Hi Marina,
I think your understanding of the "whys" of tznius differs from mine. While there is an aspect of covering ones self to not be a stumbling block, that is not the be-all and end-all of tznius. Even when alone, or in a room full of women only there is still an obligation (though it may be lessened) to act with tznius. There is the self pride issue. I am more than my body, and I cover so that my true inner beauty can come forth. The facts are that men or women that dress in a certain undignified matter are projecting a certain image about how they feel about thier bodies.
Regarding little children (and I do put tights on a little girl) No, her legs are not erva (as far as I know). It is more of a chinuch-training issue. The same way my little girl will come with me to hear megillah this purim, and will wait between milk and meat although she is not obligated to, we start training in tznius early on as well. It would be kind of hard to dump all the mitzvos on her at age 12 with no training whatsoever.
At age 3 my girls requested skirts - they wanted to be like mommy. And if mommy is comfortable in her skin (and tights!), chances are they will too!
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33055
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:42 am
tichellady wrote: | What do they see as a halakhic issue? Legs being covered or wearing tights specifically? |
I didn't ask them. I suppose there are two more halakic issues with your suggestions. The first issue is leggings are considered pants. I have them called "pants". Wikipedia defines them as close fitting trousers. The second is that when in the Jewish Community, you must adopt community norms. I forgot the name of this concept. (Maybe someone can help me out here.: But no one else in my circles is covering their child with long skirts/knee socks/leggings. Those that do are on the fringes.
There are folks in Monsey that do all these options. DH and The Rabbi would probably say they don't know any better or they are rebelling. (These are the answers I got when I asked about other externals.)
I have only seen long skirts on little girls amoung the extremists. They make the little three year olds wear cloaks also in the heat. It seems to me long skirts are more inhibiting than tights.
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amother
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:47 am
Squishy wrote: | There are folks in Monsey that do all these options. DH and The Rabbi would probably say they don't know any better or they are rebelling. (These are the answers I got when I asked about other externals.) |
I can't believe a rabbi would say that. That sounds incredibly ignorant for someone who absolutely needs to know the difference between chumra, social norms and actual halacha.
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amother
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 5:36 am
amother wrote: | I can't believe a rabbi would say that. That sounds incredibly ignorant for someone who absolutely needs to know the difference between chumra, social norms and actual halacha. |
Welcome to Monsey
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tryinghard
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 6:17 am
Squishy wrote: | I didn't ask them. I suppose there are two more halakic issues with your suggestions. The first issue is leggings are considered pants. I have them called "pants". Wikipedia defines them as close fitting trousers. The second is that when in the Jewish Community, you must adopt community norms. I forgot the name of this concept. (Maybe someone can help me out here.: But no one else in my circles is covering their child with long skirts/knee socks/leggings. Those that do are on the fringes.
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So JOOC, do you/your family not allow pajama pants?
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princessleah
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 6:18 am
amother wrote: | Everything does kick in at age 3. Its not just tznius. But for some reason tznius is the only thing people talk about and complain about.
Tznius is just another thing we teach kids to start being careful about, just like brochos and muktza and milk and meat.
Its not done in a way of you're going to hell if you don't. Its done as a teaching thing. Chinuch.
And like all aspects of chinuch you need to know how to pick your battles. If a 3 yr old is tantrumming over wanting a drink of milk 4 hours after meat, or doesn't want to wear socks you need to know how to differentiate between what's important to make a stand on and what's better to give in on this time.
Guidance from someone learned can help make this distinction. |
So which is it, chinuch or halacha? If everything "kicks in" at 3, then it has the binding force of halacha? Or is it just chinuch, "teaching?"
For the record, I've never heard of a 3 year old being made to wait 6 hours between meat and dairy.
If it's just for chinuch, and the 3 year old wants a drink of milk, you give it to her? But if she does not want to wear tights, that's a big deal?
Can we all agree at least that the essence of this part is that legs should be covered?? Although I'm confused because a lot of people before were talking about underwear, not legs. So if you don't want your underwear to show, and you don't want legs to show, and you must wear a skirt, why not wear: leggings, tights, or pants under the dress/skirt?
Can we at least agree on the part where requiring TIGHTS rather than other types of leg coverings in a SOCIAL/CULTURAL minhag, and NOT HALACHA????
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33055
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 6:43 am
amother wrote: | I can't believe a rabbi would say that. That sounds incredibly ignorant for someone who absolutely needs to know the difference between chumra, social norms and actual halacha. |
Honestly, you are the one who sounds incredibly ignorant. No wonder you went amother to insult my Rabbi. I will type real slow, so maybe you can understand.
My Rabbi is a chassudish rabbi which I mentioned. He is neither ignorant, nor is he unaware of social norms or actual halacha. While I don't agree with everything he says, I respect him.
I asked when why people change their look once they are brought up a certain way. Why does a guy go from white socks to jeans? He is obviously unhappy about something.
When someone follows certain leniencies, with or without express rabbinical permission, it can often be because of ignorance of halacha. There was a recent thread about sleeping in the same bed when niddah. Which of the following do you think is the reason why: Chumra, social norms, or ignorance of halacha?
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smile12345
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 6:49 am
gold21 wrote: | I'm just asking why. What's the halachic reasoning? I am trying to understand it. |
We don't hold that they have to wear tights at 3 though we do start certain aspects of tznius from that age. I think it comes from the fact the issur yichud starts from age 3 for girls.
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amother
Olive
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 6:59 am
My kids wear thick cotton tights all year round. If it is exceptionally hot they can wear knee socks with longer skirts. They never wear those thin tights until they are teenagers at least.
Growing up, we only wore tights, but one of my sisters was a tad rebellious on this front. She was allowed to wear socks. She is frum today, if more liberal then most of our family, I'm sure this laid back approach was helpful.
I would not force a kid or teen on this either.
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dancingqueen
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 7:04 am
smile12345 wrote: | We don't hold that they have to wear tights at 3 though we do start certain aspects of tznius from that age. I think it comes from the fact the issur yichud starts from age 3 for girls. |
So the thought process is that since Halacha finds that a man may potentially be tempted by a 3 year old girl we should have her cover up her legs to as not to make it difficult for him? Please clarify.
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octopus
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 7:07 am
dancingqueen wrote: | So the thought process is that since Halacha finds that a man may potentially be tempted by a 3 year old girl we should have her cover up her legs to as not to make it difficult for him? Please clarify. |
I'm not reading through this entire thread, and I only read the above post. I don't put tights on my three year olds and I don't even wear tights all the time. I would like to comment on the aspect of hilchos yichud. I strongly feel that hilchos yichud are in place as a protection for women and girls. It is not to protect the poor, poor men that may have a difficult time. With all the molestation stories that go around, I really think this is about protecting those from sicko ppl.
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Chayalle
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 8:09 am
amother wrote: | Yes I was kind of scratching my head about that one. In Lakewood, the rule was wearing socks until 6th grade. (Now it's 3rd).
However there are some extremely yeshivish families who do make their daughters wear tights at 3. My family was one, and I have an uncle who makes his 3 year old daughters wear tights too... |
I know quite a few yeshivish families who have their girls wearing tights at 3. Most of them are more RW yeshivish. I can also think of several Lakewood schools that require girls to wear tights from Primary. These schools are Chassidish, heimish, or RW yeshivish.
As will all rules, it is my belief that if a certain regimen is not working for a particular child, one should consult with an experienced Mechanech and/or Rav. As so many have posted in this thread, it may be worth exploring an alternative. If your Rav feels her legs must be covered, perhaps leggings with socks could work. Or your Rav might suggest waiting a bit. You'd be surprised at the answers you may get when you actually ask, and you gain by starting a relationship with someone who can advise you well in the years to come, as in all likelihood, this will not be the only Chinuch question you ever have.
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Chayalle
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 8:11 am
amother wrote: | My kids wear thick cotton tights all year round. If it is exceptionally hot they can wear knee socks with longer skirts. They never wear those thin tights until they are teenagers at least.
Growing up, we only wore tights, but one of my sisters was a tad rebellious on this front. She was allowed to wear socks. She is frum today, if more liberal then most of our family, I'm sure this laid back approach was helpful.
I would not force a kid or teen on this either. |
My hats off to your parents. It does say in Mishlei "Chanoch L'Naar Al Pi Darko, Gam ki Yazkin Lo Yassur Mimenah" - educate a child according to his individual way, and he will not turn away from it even when he grows older....
So many of us would do well to remember this.
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L K
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 8:39 am
I haven't read the whole thread but will share my story.
I started off my oldest dd with tights from age 3. We happened to have a few friends who did the same so that helped. She wore cotton in winter and soft opaque microfiber in spring-summer. They were soft, not scratchy and had to be replaced often (=$$$ lol).
She was totally fine with that. I find that tights may be more comfortable in the summer, as they prevent rashes.
I dont like it when little girls underwear is seen, so for all practical purposes if I want them to look like mentchen on swings and slides they need to be in tights.
We moved towns, she spent a year in a school whose principal had idea similar to mine, even though it was probably not publicized, and school allowed socks to a certain grade, like most other schools in town.
However, when she was 6 I sent her to a day camp. I was devastated to learn she was made fun of by her knee-sock-wearing peers. To the point of coming home bare-legged. It was less awful for her to do that than change into tights after swimming. No cajoling helped. I cried and resigned to the reality that I can't fully shape my own dd's chinuch. I bought her knee socks. My younger daughters by extension wear knee socks too. I came to peace with it.
Those who think it's unimportant and there are worse things to be upset about should respect parents' rights to want to set standards for their kids.
I wish kids were being raised with more tolerance of higher observance levels.
In my old complex Somehow, all the kids survived pesach understanding that different families hold differently, and it's ok.
At the same time, my kids have been teased by (not so nice) kids and name-called "yeshivish" (by yeshivish kids no less), or "chasidish" (by random kids who wanted to pull their own skirts way shorter than Halacha held in this community). All for the crime of wearing skirts that properly covered their knees. No, I don't mean nerdy skirts gazillion inches below the knee that hit precisely papillon inches above the ankle, whatever.
The irony was we're anything but yeshivish or chasidish. And I had to explain to my kids that these words mustn't be considered insults. Gosh...
Hatzlacha to everyone inraising your families in kedusha and taharah, with simchas haChaim, ahavas torah and ahavas yisroel.
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debsey
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Fri, Feb 24 2017, 12:50 pm
Chayalle wrote: | My hats off to your parents. It does say in Mishlei "Chanoch L'Naar Al Pi Darko, Gam ki Yazkin Lo Yassur Mimenah" - educate a child according to his individual way, and he will not turn away from it even when he grows older....
So many of us would do well to remember this. |
We are quite RW yeshivishe. I think there are some misconceptions here.
@Marina - I educate my daughters to be tznius from a young age to teach exactly the opposite point that you are referencing. Girls, you are not just objects. Your worth is so much more than your body and your looks. You have voices and thoughts worth listening to. Let's demphasize the body, because there are those forces in society that will tell you that you're worth nothing if you're not pretty by society's conventional standards of beauty. Since it's so tempting to follow fashion and have your self-worth tied up in it, let's start at a really young age to point out the fallacy of that.
@Squishy - if we're putting tights on our girls from age 3 for chinuch purposes, to create comfort and familiarity with mitzvos, then making them uncomfortable to do it is defeating the purpose. My second DD was sensory as a kid. You can buy cotton leggings and socks that match so closely, no one would ever be able to tell it's not tights. Very RW yeshivish communities also have a certain sense of how a child should dress, but you can make the legging/sock look be so unobtrusive, no one will notice. Or you can buy the very high quality cotton tights which are super comfortable (especially if you wash on delicate and dry on a low setting with lots of fabric softener.) To this day, my second dd can't wear nude tights well, so she wears thicker tights. If anything, she looks more tznius. She sleeps in PJs, because it's comfortable for her, but gladly dons a robe when she walks around at night. The struggle never happened because I never engaged in a power struggle with her! I just looked for ways to make it work, with her.
@Chayalle - exactly. Fifth Shulchan Aruch. Common sense.
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