For those who make their daughter wear tights after age 3

33055

Fri, Feb 24 2017, 3:56 pm

debsey wrote:

We are quite RW yeshivishe. I think there are some misconceptions here.
@Marina - I educate my daughters to be tznius from a young age to teach exactly the opposite point that you are referencing. Girls, you are not just objects. Your worth is so much more than your body and your looks. You have voices and thoughts worth listening to. Let's demphasize the body, because there are those forces in society that will tell you that you're worth nothing if you're not pretty by society's conventional standards of beauty. Since it's so tempting to follow fashion and have your self-worth tied up in it, let's start at a really young age to point out the fallacy of that.

@Squishy - if we're putting tights on our girls from age 3 for chinuch purposes, to create comfort and familiarity with mitzvos, then making them uncomfortable to do it is defeating the purpose. My second DD was sensory as a kid. You can buy cotton leggings and socks that match so closely, no one would ever be able to tell it's not tights. Very RW yeshivish communities also have a certain sense of how a child should dress, but you can make the legging/sock look be so unobtrusive, no one will notice. Or you can buy the very high quality cotton tights which are super comfortable (especially if you wash on delicate and dry on a low setting with lots of fabric softener.) To this day, my second dd can't wear nude tights well, so she wears thicker tights. If anything, she looks more tznius. She sleeps in PJs, because it's comfortable for her, but gladly dons a robe when she walks around at night. The struggle never happened because I never engaged in a power struggle with her! I just looked for ways to make it work, with her.

@Chayalle - exactly. Fifth Shulchan Aruch. Common sense.

Same idea. My daughter wasn't uncomfortable in baggy cotton tights or cotton socks under her tights. The leggings and matching socks sound to me like like two part tights. I fail to understand what is gained.

gold21

Fri, Feb 24 2017, 3:57 pm

L K wrote:

I haven't read the whole thread but will share my story.

I started off my oldest dd with tights from age 3. We happened to have a few friends who did the same so that helped. She wore cotton in winter and soft opaque microfiber in spring-summer. They were soft, not scratchy and had to be replaced often (=$$$ lol).

She was totally fine with that. I find that tights may be more comfortable in the summer, as they prevent rashes.
I dont like it when little girls underwear is seen, so for all practical purposes if I want them to look like mentchen on swings and slides they need to be in tights.

We moved towns, she spent a year in a school whose principal had idea similar to mine, even though it was probably not publicized, and school allowed socks to a certain grade, like most other schools in town.

However, when she was 6 I sent her to a day camp. I was devastated to learn she was made fun of by her knee-sock-wearing peers. To the point of coming home bare-legged. It was less awful for her to do that than change into tights after swimming. No cajoling helped. I cried and resigned to the reality that I can't fully shape my own dd's chinuch. I bought her knee socks. My younger daughters by extension wear knee socks too. I came to peace with it.

Those who think it's unimportant and there are worse things to be upset about should respect parents' rights to want to set standards for their kids.

I wish kids were being raised with more tolerance of higher observance levels.
In my old complex Somehow, all the kids survived pesach understanding that different families hold differently, and it's ok.

At the same time, my kids have been teased by (not so nice) kids and name-called "yeshivish" (by yeshivish kids no less), or "chasidish" (by random kids who wanted to pull their own skirts way shorter than Halacha held in this community). All for the crime of wearing skirts that properly covered their knees. No, I don't mean nerdy skirts gazillion inches below the knee that hit precisely papillon inches above the ankle, whatever.
The irony was we're anything but yeshivish or chasidish. And I had to explain to my kids that these words mustn't be considered insults. Gosh...

Hatzlacha to everyone inraising your families in kedusha and taharah, with simchas haChaim, ahavas torah and ahavas yisroel.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Unfortunately, when kids stand out from their peers, they can be good bullying targets. Sad

However, it's the same in the reverse- if a girl looks more modern than her peers, she's not going to be much better off. It goes both ways. It's unfortunate.

Btw, how do tights prevent rashes? I don't understand.

debsey

Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:05 pm

Squishy wrote:

The composition of leggings and where the seams are just didn't irritate my DD! I had to work on different things. Bought one type of tights, she couldn't wear them. Tried another brand, didn't help. Tried thicker and they were better-ish but she still was squirming uncomfortably. Tried the really good quality Lands End leggings and somehow, she didn't squirm! Actually, it was an accidental discovery. I bought the leggings because she was taking a gymnastics class and she needed leggings. And I put them on and magic - she was comfortable! So I bought a whole bunch in black, navy, and offwhite, matched up socks, and it was great. Actually, at age 3 ,I was also able to buy patterned ones, which was appropriate in Lakewood, and they looked cute and she loved them. By the time she was in second grade IIRC, she was just wearing the soft, thick cotton tights. The leggings got her used to something on her legs, and the tights were a natural transition, and she was fine with it.

I'd always prefer finding a solution to power struggles!

33055

Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:18 pm

debsey wrote:

Again, I agree with you. My struggle with her didn't last five minutes until I thought of the socks and tights. It was so surprising given how compliant she normally is.

debsey

Fri, Feb 24 2017, 4:28 pm

Squishy wrote:

Again, I agree with you. My struggle with her didn't last five minutes until I thought of the socks and tights. It was so surprising given how compliant she normally is.

DD#2 is the same way (she's in 8th grade now) she's so easygoing, until you hit one of these quirky things, usually things that irritate her, and then you can't get her to budge until you think of a solution. She taught herself to swallow pills at age 4 because she WOULD NOT take medicine - couldn't handle the taste and the sensation of syrup in her throat. That's just the kind of kid she is. I usually take her sensory things seriously and just try to come up with a solution.

33055

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 7:32 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

I am sorry but I dont understand how there can be any halachic problem with leggings.
They are pants? Nowhere does it say women can't wear pants. It says women can't wear men's wear, not pants. Please correct me if I am wrong.
The Yemenite women were very tzanua and they all wore wide pants under their dresses. Is there a problem with that?
What could be the problem with wearing women's 'pants' (leggings are certainly not menswear) UNDER a skirt???

I am going to try to explain to you the thinking here. I am not trying to discount what you are saying.

They are called pants and men wear pants. Therefore they are mens wear. That is the end of the story. Women can't wear any kind of pants.

What Yeminite women do has exactly zero influence in my circles. What I think, what Yeminite women think, and what you think is immaterial to whether leggings are pants in my circles.

There are women who wear leggings in Monsey under skirts. Those women who wear leggings are not considered the same as those that don't. Their children would not be included in all activities. They would not get into most schools.

Today I noticed a group of little girls from 7 different families on my block playing together, and and the girls were wearing capes. (The sisters of course had matching capes.) I don't know who sent the memo around that this Shabbos winter coats got put away, and the capes came out. I further don't know how only capes were ok not spring coats in this group.

It is also interesting this group is the frummer girls and they exclude certain other girls from two families whose daughters were wearing coats today. Those two families are ostracized often. BH they have each other.

In a society like this, even if I 100% believe leggings are not pants, I would not subject my daughter to being excluded. I would move before I would put her in leggings.

dancingqueen

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 7:59 pm

octopus wrote:

I'm not reading through this entire thread, and I only read the above post. I don't put tights on my three year olds and I don't even wear tights all the time. I would like to comment on the aspect of hilchos yichud. I strongly feel that hilchos yichud are in place as a protection for women and girls. It is not to protect the poor, poor men that may have a difficult time. With all the molestation stories that go around, I really think this is about protecting those from sicko ppl.

So you missed my point. I'm talking about "learning out" from the laws of yichud that a girl should dress tznius from age 3. And extrapolating that girls may be tempting from age 3 and there need to fully cover their legs etc is an uncomfortable place to go for me.

And btw, in terms of protecting kids from molestation it seems like the laws should protect young boys from men sadly Sad

gold21

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 8:17 pm

Squishy wrote:

Just FYI- I sometimes wear leggings under skirts and I definitely think I would get into schools in Monsey. I know a number of YSV parents and I think I'm a similar type. Tongue Out

I know Monsey is heavily chassidish, but there are still some middle of the road communities too.

amother

Emerald

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 9:05 pm

I haven't read the entire thread but some of the replies trigger anxiety and nausea for me.
I had to wear tights from a very young age and at some point I started hating it. I was hot and uncomfortable.
The minute I could start ripping them off and lying to my parents, I did.
And I never put them back on. No tights, no socks, no item that doesn't feel weather appropriate or comfortable to me actually.
So yeah, my parents inverstment in my chinuch was a gamble that certainly didn't pay off in this instance.

amother

Tan

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 9:33 pm

Squishy wrote:

In a society like this, even if I 100% believe leggings are not pants, I would not subject my daughter to being excluded. I would move before I would put her in leggings.

And I would move before I had to live in a society that enforced such extreme proscriptions on non-consequential life styles such as the style of a child's coat.

As a metaphor for group think, it's frightening as I assume that if such slight deviations from what "everyone" is doing can make a child or adult shunned, any kind of show of independent thinking in anyway would subject one to being cast out completely.

I assume there must be some group of people in that town who live a life of quiet desperation in which they must put on a face to meet the other faces that they meet.

33055

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 10:31 pm

gold21 wrote:

Sorry to be annoying, Squishy, I'm not trying to drive you crazy!! Tongue Out

, but what do you mean by "most" schools? You mean chassidish schools?

Granted I don't live in Monsey, but I have not had any issue getting my kids into mainstream frum good solid Torahdike schools. B"H!!! Nobody would consider my family bummy or modern or less-than. We're pretty frum I think. Tongue Out

What is accepted outside of Monsey is different than in-town. I am sure you are, an excellent mom with an excellent family. But the externals matter here. Every mother with leggings is definitely rated as bummy or modern or less-than by those that don't wear leggings except maybe by others who also wear leggings. Leggings immediately telegraph you are modern. It is completely looked down here. I am sorry.

What I mean by most schools is all the Monsey schools including chassidish schools.

The schools may not be aware of what the mothers are doing outside of the schools, but I don't believe anyone is knowingly accepting mothers who wear leggings including YSV. Mrs. Kokish, the girls principal, questions what the mothers wear when applying to the school. She wants mothers who wear skirts with stockings. She does not want leggings and short socks.

Last edited by 33055 on Sat, Feb 25 2017, 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tangerine

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 10:33 pm

Squishy wrote:

What is accepted outside of Monsey is different than in-town. I am sure you are, an excellent mom with an excellent family. But the externals matter here. Every mother with leggings is definitely rated as bummy or modern or less-than by those that don't wear leggings except maybe by others who also wear leggings. Leggings immediately telegraph you are modern. It is completely looked down here. I am sorry.

What I mean by most schools is all the Monsey schools including chassidish schools.

The schools may not be aware of what the mothers are doing outside of the schools, but I don't believe no one is knowingly accepting mothers who wear leggings including YSV. Mrs. Kokish, the girls principal, questions what the mothers wear when applying to the school. She wants mothers who wear skirts with stockings. She does not want leggings and short socks.

And here I thought Brooklyn was messed up. This is one of the most sorry and pathetic things I've heard. (Nothing personal, of course, just about the reality you describe.)

gold21

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 10:37 pm

Squishy wrote:

I wouldn't interview in leggings. Tongue Out

No worries. LOL