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What the He**?? What do you say to this article?
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dancingqueen









  


Post  Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:47 am
hillary wrote:
Look, your sense of fairness may demand alimony and the like, but if the Torah does not mandate it, it is theft. He is not the one who invented it.


Well the rabbis also said Dina malchusa so we can wipe that one off the list of worries.

Listen you can't get around the fact that for much of history in many cultures including our own women were considered property. Definitely not a palatable thought these days.

I did learn an explanation that "Adam" was neither gender, and Hashem in created chava split mankind into male and female. I like that one.
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GreenEyes26









  


Post  Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:58 am
I don't understand why we can't just say, "these mefarshim were men of their time", apply what's appropriate, and move on. Judaism had been doing just that until fairly recently, when all of a sudden we've become frozen in Halacha since the 1930's, and in Chassidus, even earlier.

I don't get insulted, and just ignore. It's not applicable in this day and age. No one is infalliable. Not everything translates centuries later. It just doesn't.
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amother




Tan


Post  Mon, Dec 05 2016, 11:00 am
I'm not responding to the article per se because experience has taught me to take anything written on a blog with a large dosage of salt. And even that may not suffice.

As a teenager (in the pre internet days) I was very disturbed by what I perceived as the unfairness of a women's place in the world to come being so heavily dependent on who she had the good or bad fortune to marry and other things that can be out of her control.

My parents arranged for me to speak to two major Talmedey Chachomim (whose names many of you would recognize) . They both said that you can make arguments coming to a lot different conclusions on this issue. But in the end every person's place in the next world is determined by the their personal "L'Pum Tzara Agra" Meaning that there may be a certain amount of truth in all the viewpoints expressed on this issue but none of them override the inherit truth and strength of "L'Pum Tzara Agra"
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amother




cornflower


Post  Mon, Dec 05 2016, 11:22 am
amother wrote:
As a teenager (in the pre internet days) I was very disturbed by what I perceived as the unfairness of a women's place in the world to come being so heavily dependent on who she had the good or bad fortune to marry and other things that can be out of her control.


This is true for a man too, isn't it?

As someone who is the child of a basically good man, and a very abusive mother....my father suffered plenty for having the misfortune to marry my mother. I suppose he could've divorced her, but is of the type that would never consider divorce.

A woman today can also pick up and leave a man who makes her miserable.
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hillary









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 8:52 am
dancingqueen wrote:
Well the rabbis also said Dina malchusa so we can wipe that one off the list of worries.

Listen you can't get around the fact that for much of history in many cultures including our own women were considered property. Definitely not a palatable thought these days.

I did learn an explanation that "Adam" was neither gender, and Hashem in created chava split mankind into male and female. I like that one.

Just a heads up. Dina demalchusa does not mean that the law can mandate payment from one jew to another. It is relevant vis a vis a Jew and the government. One has to pay taxes and keep their laws. But the halachos of choshen mishpot are not rendered moot because the government has different laws. All governments had laws, yet an entire body of halacha has been established throughout our lives under thoae governments, with nary a mention of secular law. America is no different and alimony is theft.
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ectomorph









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:38 am
A whole bunch of Rabbanim put out a kol Korey against him just a few weeks ago. He's widely disliked.

He just wants attention. Don't feed him.
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ectomorph









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:39 am
He specializes in repackaging Torah in offensive and inappropriate language.
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Iymnok









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 11:04 am
hillary wrote:
Just a heads up. Dina demalchusa does not mean that the law can mandate payment from one jew to another. It is relevant vis a vis a Jew and the government. One has to pay taxes and keep their laws. But the halachos of choshen mishpot are not rendered moot because the government has different laws. All governments had laws, yet an entire body of halacha has been established throughout our lives under thoae governments, with nary a mention of secular law. America is no different and alimony is theft.

That's in monetary disputes.
If the beis din rules to go to a secular court and abide by that ruling, then it is totally halachicly valid. That may happen with divorce proceedings since it is a way the ruling can be enforced.
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amother




Sapphire


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 11:41 am
GreenEyes26 wrote:
I don't understand why we can't just say, "these mefarshim were men of their time", apply what's appropriate, and move on. Judaism had been doing just that until fairly recently, when all of a sudden we've become frozen in Halacha since the 1930's, and in Chassidus, even earlier.

I don't get insulted, and just ignore. It's not applicable in this day and age. No one is infalliable. Not everything translates centuries later. It just doesn't.


Exactly
That's why lchatchila toras shbal peh should never have been written down at all. I'm happy not to learn this
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Iymnok









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 11:46 am
When pulling a quote from a gadol, you need context. How does he view the same subject in other places?
These gedolim that he's bringing as proofs were respectful of women elsewhere. This is hashkafa. L'halacha it may do women very well.
You have to see the whole picture.
This twisted guy has distorted tunnel vision.
Don't trust him with anything.
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Carmen Luna









  


Post  Wed, Mar 15 2017, 12:05 pm
amother wrote:

You know why men are thankful that they weren't born women? Because they are never expected to earn enough to pay all the bills, keep an immaculate house, and raise a dozen kids, all at the same time. Go sit and learn, daven, learn some more, and come home after all the kids are bathed and in bed - and expect a nice hot supper no matter how late it is and how early the wife has to get up.


In what universe were you born?
In my world men earn the money, help with housework, come home to bathe the kids and feed them supper and put them to sleep, spend time with his wife and then go out and learn. Oh and lets the wife sleep in when he knows she was up at night with the baby.
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hillary









  


Post  Thu, Mar 16 2017, 7:29 pm
Iymnok wrote:
That's in monetary disputes.
If the beis din rules to go to a secular court and abide by that ruling, then it is totally halachicly valid. That may happen with divorce proceedings since it is a way the ruling can be enforced.


Not really. Beis Din does not invent halacha, they decide it. They can send to court, but they cannot sanction theft. The court decides the issues that halacha does not discuss, such as custody. But court ordered alimony is still theft. No Beis Din can change that.
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dancingqueen









  


Post  Thu, Mar 16 2017, 9:52 pm
hillary wrote:
Not really. Beis Din does not invent halacha, they decide it. They can send to court, but they cannot sanction theft. The court decides the issues that halacha does not discuss, such as custody. But court ordered alimony is still theft. No Beis Din can change that.


Why would alimony be theft?
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Iymnok









  


Post  Fri, Mar 17 2017, 3:56 am
hillary wrote:
Not really. Beis Din does not invent halacha, they decide it. They can send to court, but they cannot sanction theft. The court decides the issues that halacha does not discuss, such as custody. But court ordered alimony is still theft. No Beis Din can change that.

Child support and alimony are not theft according to halacha. Since the beis din is not given the power in many countries over money, the couple is sent to secular courts to work it out.
B"H I don't know the details, just that it's sometimes worked out this way.
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imasoftov









  


Post  Fri, Mar 17 2017, 5:47 am
ectomorph wrote:
A whole bunch of Rabbanim put out a kol Korey against him just a few weeks ago. He's widely disliked.

He just wants attention. Don't feed him.

I missed that. Do you have a link to an article? Or do you remember who signed it, I might be able to find something by searching for the names? Thanks.
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hillary









  


Post  Mon, Mar 20 2017, 2:11 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Why would alimony be theft?

Because she doesn't deserve the money, according to halacha. You can't force people to pay you, just because the legal system will allow it. The Torah does not recognize this jurisdiction of a court to remove money from people's wallets.
Beis Din will send to court when child care cannot be worked out, because that is not stealing. But alimony is just plain stealing, with no Torah right
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