Help! My 11 year old son is lying and stealing

wondergirl

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 6:57 pm

cnc wrote:

Why the interrogation? Maybe the teenager has bain hazmanim until Rosh Chodesh or maybe he's not in school altogether.

If he is not in school then there are bigger issues going on but I just wondered if the teenage son was deflecting from something he had done (I.e cutting class, etc) and/or diverting the attention to his younger brother to get out of trouble himself. And if he has off until Rosh Chodesh then he could have just spent time with his brother and gotten pizza with him instead of ignoring him when he saw him in the store and then getting him into trouble at home. These are some of the things the op needs to look at when trying to determine what the underlying root causes of the problem are and how to best resolve them.

cnc

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:08 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Sometimes it may just make sense to take posts at face value instead of using your imagination to look for things that may or may not exist.

wondergirl

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:14 pm

cnc wrote:

My my. Talk about deflecting. You certainly know how to put a spin on things. And let's go with each of your scenarios, if one kid is not in school that has nothing to do with another kid. The two children's issues don't contradict each other. If we go with your second scenario , why does the older child have a responsibility to spend time with his brother ?

Sometimes it may just make sense to take posts at face value instead of using your imagination to look for things that don't exist.

The older child doesnt have a responsibility to spend time with his younger brother but why does the older child have a responsibility to confront the younger brother for something that is none of his business? And why is the father allowing this and getting involved which according to op made things worse? And if the older child is not responsible for the younger child and doesnt have to be nice to him then why does the op expect the younger child to be responsible for an older sibling (op wants to pay the 11 year old to help an older sibling who has social struggles)? Its like op is okay with the teenage son being mean to the 11 year old but expects the 11 year old to be a role model to an older sibling. Does that make any sense to you at all?

cnc

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:24 pm

wondergirl wrote:

The older child doesnt have a responsibility to spend time with his younger brother but why does the older child have a responsibility to confront the younger brother for something that is none of his business? And why is the father allowing this and getting involved which according to op made things worse? And if the older child is not responsible for the younger child and doesnt have to be nice to him then why does the op expect the younger child to be responsible for an older sibling (op wants to pay the 11 year old to help an older sibling who has social struggles)? Its like op is okay with the older brother being mean to the 11 year old but expects the 11 year old to be a role model to an older sibling. Does that make any sense to you at all?

Please note that I edited my previous post because I misread the first part of yours.

I don't consider an older brother reporting back to the parents "being mean". And if the eleven year old child is being paid to help a sibling ( older?) , that certainly doesn't mean he has a responsibility, to me it seems like an extra if he's being paid for it .

Although I don't think this has anything to do with your original post that I replied to. It came across as though you were doubting the OP and putting blame on her but maybe that's just the way I read it.

WhatFor

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:46 pm

wondergirl wrote:

The bolded is very harsh and painful for an 11 year old to hear from his father and completely inappropriate especially given the context of the conversation. It would be humiliating and invalidating to anyone, let alone a child. Is this how your husband relates to him all the time? If so, then he needs to get some serious help before things get worse.
.

Thanks for raising, wondergirl. That jumped out at me as well and I was quite surprised that no one was commenting on that as I was reading through the responses.

OP- I'm sorry that you're dealing with a more challenging child. No one wants to see their children be dishonest. But if you look at the broad interaction of the story your related: your ds telling you and DH about a Holocaust story that made him cry is A- DS looking to confide in you; and B- DS looking to demonstrate to you and DH that he is a caring individual who cares about the holocaust.

Your DH's response- that your DS made you and DH cry, is: A- Rejecting your DS's attempt to confide; B- Rejecting DS's "suggestion" that he is a sensitive and caring individual; and C- in some way, rejecting DS overall as a person, since it doesn't seem that that comment was tied to an immediate action. So it's was just a commentary on DS. I.e. even when he was trying to show some other facet of himself to his parents, he still just that kid that made his parents cry.

(That's the third example you gave of a "shaming" dynamic in your family's interactions. The first being your older ds trying to "expose" younger ds, and the second was when your DH threatened to call the store to confirm.)

In the meantime, the positive thing about all this is that it seems that ds is still trying to reach out to his parents to impress you guys; he wants to be a good child. Maybe reach out to a family counselor to explore ways you all could all improve this dynamic. It's unfair for your ds to suffer just bc his older siblings were easier. (One other thought- could be totally meritless- but bc you say he's your youngest: is he objectively more difficult or do you guys just have less energy to deal with him than you did the older ones?)

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 10:51 pm

OP again. I took my 11 year old out of town with me yesterday and we had quality time together. I even bought him an ice cream. Vanilla with colored sprinkles.

Today we won't be home when my special needs child comes home. My 11 year old said he would come home from cheder at lunchtime and prepare lunch for her. He doesn't even know about my "payment" plan yet. We haven't discussed it. He is really a loving child and brother.

Regarding the dynamic between him and my teenager - boys fight with each other. Kids have sibling rivalry. We don't encourage tattling BUT we need to know if the 11 year old has money about which we have no knowledge. Especially when he has a reputation (at home) for stealing. I need to know when he's out of line. Going to a pizza shop with money about which I don't know is out of line. So there is nothing wrong with an older child telling us. And I certainly can't control if the older one confronts the younger one. There is a limit to how "controlling" I can be.

WhatFor

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 1:03 am

amother wrote:

That really sweet, OP. I hope and your ds enjoyed. He sounds like he's very caring and also trying to please you and your dh- that's so considerate that he wants to go home and prepare lunch for his special needs sister. He is clearly a kind, sensitive child.

As to your second point, I'm sure you don't see it as encouraging your older ds to tattle, and I understand that you want to know where your younger ds is, but this kind of dynamic could foster resentment between the two, and it might not be worth what you're getting out of it. As a parent, it wouldn't be considered "controlling" if you protected your younger son from being confronted by the older. Also, you can foster loyalty between the two differently: The next time older ds tattles you can just tell him you're disappointed that he's trying to get his younger brother in trouble. Teach him about sibling loyalty. Right now, it seems like he's rewarded by tattling- even if the reward is just moral superiority. And you and ds may be sending the message that you appreciate him for tattling. If older ds sees that you value sibling loyalty above his tattling, he may change his attitude toward his younger brother.

An anecdote: when I was a teen, my father once asked me where my brother was going after school. I answered that I had promised my brother I wouldn't say. My father actually told me he was very proud of me for keeping my promise to my brother, and then asked, "just tell me is it dangerous?" It wasn't, and I was able to tell him that. I remember seeing the pride in my father's face when he understood the alliance I had to my brother, and that instilled (or strengthened) in me the value of sibling loyalty. Sibling loyalty really is its own value. Obviously, you're already on track for that if younger ds is volunteering to help out his older sister. That said, sounds like older ds could use a brush-up.

(Of course, it's possible to argue that older ds is "worried" for younger ds' wellbeing, but younger ds isn't in physical danger and moreover, older ds is not his parent. IMO, the sacrifice in their relationship is not worth knowing that ds lied a particular time. You already know younger ds is struggling with this issue, and not knowing that he lied about it one particular time is not going to make or break your ability to deal with this issue.)

amother

Babypink

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 1:45 am

So, this is a very interesting topic, Whatfor. There is definitely an "interesting" dynamic between teenage son and 11 year old. My teen is 16, for the record.
Last time 11 year old stole something big was - I or DH had left a 50 shekel note on a shelf in the kitchen. A few minutes later it was gone. 11 year old had been seen by DH lurking and going in and out of rooms in a suspicious way. DH suspected it was him but he said he didn't see the money and the money never turned up. End of story. Later that day or the next day 16 year old was home and IIRC DH spoke with him about this. He said something like "Let me talk to him", which he did. 11 year old denied and denied until he finally fessed up. Then he wrote us a letter of confession (he writes notes).
BTW what did he do with the money? He bought an expensive pencil sharpener for his writing utensil gamach that he was running in cheder (we had given him a nice amount of money to buy pens and stuff).

Maybe it's time to take him out of the picture and just tell him "I don't want to hear it" every time he has stories about his younger brother. He's always telling me what a liar he is. Maybe we have to help change the dynamic. I agree with what you say about sibling loyalty. There seems to be a lack of it in this house when it comes to my youngest. I have an older daughter who really walks all over him. (He has a strong personality and so does she but how on earth does a 19 year old see an 11 year old as competition????)

I often talk to my dh about family therapy but to be very honest, we really don't know whom we can trust to be really good. Very often therapists mess up more than they help. I haven't seen too much success there. And my eldest daughter who is responsible for alot of the strife here would NEVER agree to see anyone (which is obviously her own loss, being about to embark on shidduchim). I did do energy work on my 11 year old, which helped him deal with some stuff. Maybe I should take him back for more....

amother

Bisque

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 6:31 am

Dear Op, I feel for you! You seem to have a loving and caring family and can relate how the lying gets to you.

How to help him to overcome this depends on his personality.

What makes me wonder is he type of person that knows to say how he feels? Or does it make him be unfortable? Like does he verbalize he is sad, angry, happy etc.? Does he seem to change moods suddenly, like from crying to rage? Does he show empathy and guilt?

How is his relation to his friends? Is he a fierce friend to them or a manipulator?

Also I would deal differently with the teenage boy. Ask your kids about how they feel. Yes the family dynamic could improve. Healing can only start imo if all parts are taken seriously and all parties are ready and willing to change.