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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
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amother
Saddlebrown
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 Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:19 am
| Simple1 wrote: | | I decided a long time ago that this goes into a category called "it's best not to overthink things". My life is far from perfect, but I feel there has never been a better time to be born a women. |
I can’t help thinking about it, and it gets me depressed every time, but I definitely agree with you that there has never been a better time to be born a woman.
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Simple1
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:23 am
| amother wrote: | | I can’t help thinking about it, and it gets me depressed every time, but I definitely agree with you that there has never been a better time to be born a woman. |
I went through that stage already. I even bought tons of books on the topic. Then I decided I had enough wasting energy on it. And I saw that in practical life, none of it has a direct effect on personal happiness. When Moshiach comes, we'll have more clarity.
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iluvy
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:31 am
| amother wrote: | The schar (and by implication - value) is not the same, if not commanded.
And I’m not the one saying that women are less important - it’s the gemara and halacha. That’s why men are saved ahead of women (and the reason for shelo asani isha). |
The gemara is written by men, for men. There is no reason for women to accept its valuation of women and their role.
To say that women are disenfranchised from the most important mitzvos in Judaism is to accept an extremely distorted view of Judaism that only values the mitzvos and role of men (which is, to be fair, an extremely prevalent view). The most important mitzvos in Judaism are Shabbos, kashrus, and taharas hamishpacha. Women are fully obligated in all three, and men have almost nothing to do with the last one. The three pillars of the world are Torah, avodah, and gemilus chasadim. If you hold that the first pillar belongs to men, then the third belongs to women, and the second is equally shared.
More broadly, it's absurd to count mitzvos like they're Pokemon. Everyone is given a body, a brain, and iyH 120 years, and our goal is to use them as fully as possible for avodas Hashem. A man who davens for six hours in shul on Rosh Hashana has not done more mitzvos than a woman who watches her kids for those six hours. They have both spent six hours serving Hashem.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:36 am
| amother wrote: | | I can’t understand how frum women are glad to be deprived of Torah and mitzvos. If you truly believe that Torah and mitzvos are the most important things in the world, then having LESS Torah and FEWER mitzvos makes one LESS important. (Having and educating children are among the mitzvos given to men - not to women!) | who said I am being deprived of torah and mitzvot just because I dont have the same ones that men have?
No one person can do ALL 613 mitzvot, its not physically possible. So why is it being deprived of ANYTHING just because Im happy with what mitzvot I have and not upset that I dont have to do the men's mitzvot as well?
I love lighting the shabbat candles. That mitzvah, to me, is a beautiful one. Thats my mitzvah. Why do I need also men's mitzvot to feel fulfilled jewishly? I dont.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:39 am
| amother wrote: | The schar (and by implication - value) is not the same, if not commanded.
And I’m not the one saying that women are less important - it’s the gemara and halacha. That’s why men are saved ahead of women (and the reason for shelo asani isha). |
Don’t worry so much. Just do your best and you can earn as much Gan eden as any man. Who cares if you got it through davenign with a minyan or through watching your kids?
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:41 am
| amother wrote: | The schar (and by implication - value) is not the same, if not commanded.
And I’m not the one saying that women are less important - it’s the gemara and halacha. That’s why men are saved ahead of women (and the reason for shelo asani isha). | But we, as women, have our own mitzvot that we are commanded to do. Who is to say that we are commanded to do fewer mitzvot? Also, why should be have to count the amount of mitzvot? Meaning, we dont have to have the same amount of mitzvot as men, its not a race.
In the gemara it says women are less important? Source please.
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Mommyg8
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 10:55 am
| mommy3b2c wrote: | | Don’t worry so much. Just do your best and you can earn as much Gan eden as any man. Who cares if you got it through davenign with a minyan or through watching your kids? |
Thank you, mommy3b2c, you have such a beautiful attitude towards being a woman. You give many of us chizzuk!
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Alternative
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 11:03 am
| DVOM wrote: | I love being a woman!
I think I would probably fall on the feminine, traditional gender roles side of the spectrum. I love looking pretty and smelling nice. I love when my husband tells me how beautiful I am, or just follows me with his eyes so that I know he's thinking about how beautiful I am. I love feeling cared for and protected and cherished and loved by the men in my life. I love being able to scream really loud when I see a bug and having my husband and 4 sons come running. I love having doors held open for me and cups of coffee and tea made for me and thermostats lowered and highered to keep me comfortable. I love being led into the house half asleep at the end of long drives and being tucked into bed while my guys unpack the car. I love that my husband keeps my car filled with gas. I make the money in our family right now but I don't feel the pressure of managing or budgeting it. I don't pay any bills.I even love the luxury of having a good long cry every now and then.
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I see this type of answer has come up a bunch of times, and I just can't relate. It sounds like some kind of 50s utopia, but really I don't know anyone who lives like this. The women I know all work just as hard as the men, and I am talking about working outside the home (let's not get started on inside). I include my mother, my grandmother, my sisters, and most of my friends in this category. They all felt the pressure and responsibility of parnassa just as much as their husbands. It's even worse for us, because most of us felt pressured to go back to work within a few weeks or months of giving birth, something men never feel pressured to do. Sure, a lot of the women I know don't work full time, but their job is still crucial to the family parnassa, and if you add to that their household duties, it's more than full time.
I don't feel pampered for being a woman. If anything, most women I see are not being served cups of tea, but making them for the men. We unpack the groceries and the car after long drives just like the men.
I do put a lot of effort into looking good, but I wish I didn't have to. It would be amazing to be able to just go out and about without doing make up and hair and laser and pilates. I do not enjoy the high esthetic standards women are supposed to abide by.
In short, I think we have it tougher than men. Today we have the financial burden as well as still needing to look like pretty dolls. As well as being expected to do most of the housework. Having a gentleman offer to help me with my heavy case once in three months really doesn't make up for this.
Still, all in all I like being a woman. I think we have MUCH higher emotional intelligence and I wouldn't give that up for the world. I really do believe we are more evolved, sophisticated beings.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:20 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | But we, as women, have our own mitzvot that we are commanded to do. Who is to say that we are commanded to do fewer mitzvot? Also, why should be have to count the amount of mitzvot? Meaning, we dont have to have the same amount of mitzvot as men, its not a race.
In the gemara it says women are less important? Source please. |
Most of the Mitzvos that we do (even challah and candle lighting) were given equally to men. Many of the Mitzvos in which women do the most work (e.g. having and educating children) are actually Mitzvos given to men - not women. So in essence, the woman’s role turns out to be helping the man achieve his Mitzvos.
With regard to worth- you can check out the Gemara at the end of Horiyus, where it states that men are saved before women. We generally we choose to save what’s most valuable. There’s a hierarchy in Judaism, and women are at the bottom (in some cases less than slaves and children).
For more sources, you can check out the Shelo Asani Isha thread.
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amother
Salmon
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:31 pm
| Alternative wrote: | | It would be amazing to be able to just go out and about without doing make up and hair and laser and pilates. |
That's how most go out day by day.
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farm
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 12:55 pm
| amother wrote: | Most of the Mitzvos that we do (even challah and candle lighting) were given equally to men. Many of the Mitzvos in which women do the most work (e.g. having and educating children) are actually Mitzvos given to men - not women. So in essence, the woman’s role turns out to be helping the man achieve his Mitzvos.
With regard to worth- you can check out the Gemara at the end of Horiyus, where it states that men are saved before women. We generally we choose to save what’s most valuable. There’s a hierarchy in Judaism, and women are at the bottom (in some cases less than slaves and children).
For more sources, you can check out the Shelo Asani Isha thread. |
Women depreciate to a lesser degree than men
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LovesHashem
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:02 pm
| amother wrote: | | That's how most go out day by day. |
Agreed. If I don't feel like being pretty, I ain't gonna be pretty.
I don't do makeup, hair, or do pretty if I don't want to, feel like it, and it's impractical.
Many times I do, and I love it.
But if I don't want to do it some random day, or even for a month straight- I won't.
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sequoia
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:06 pm
Makeup, hair, laser, and Pilates...
Is that the modern equivalent of food, water, clothes, and shelter?
Most women on the planet have never heard of Pilates, and laser hair removal is something that’s fairly new and caters to a specific aesthetic.
Simone de Beauvoir is like wth at this conversation.
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Alternative
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | That's how most go out day by day. |
I was exaggerating for effect. But no one can deny that women have much higher expectations placed on them in terms of looks.
I am not talking about trophy wives. Just a regular professional woman cannot get up, wash her face, and leave the house. Many men can (ok, they have to shave, but then women need to shave legs).
I don't enjoy doing my hair and make up (which I apply lightly), or choosing nice outfits. But if I only invested the amount of time a typical guy does, people would view me as having a neglected appearance.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:15 pm
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I don't get this "I wish we didn't have to do hair/makeup". Guess what? You don't have to! I haven't worn a drop of makeup in a decade. I am not fashionable at all and don't really care to be. I don't get laser, I shave my legs when I feel the need to. I wear tights anyway, so I can get away with shaving once in 2-3 weeks. I'm not a shlump, BTW (well, sometimes I am). I look presentable most of the time. But I'm just not into getting dolled up or accesorizing or whatever. I don't put that much effort into my appearance. I still managed to get married young and I have friends and work at a professional job, and live a normal frum life.
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Ruchel
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:45 pm
You don't have to shave to work, wth!
You also don't have to wear make up unless in some professions.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:16 pm
| Alternative wrote: | I was exaggerating for effect. But no one can deny that women have much higher expectations placed on them in terms of looks.
I am not talking about trophy wives. Just a regular professional woman cannot get up, wash her face, and leave the house. Many men can (ok, they have to shave, but then women need to shave legs).
I don't enjoy doing my hair and make up (which I apply lightly), or choosing nice outfits. But if I only invested the amount of time a typical guy does, people would view me as having a neglected appearance. | Im sorry, but NOBODY is being forced to shave any part of their body or put on make up or any of that. I literally brush my teeth and my hair in the morning (and then put a partial mitpachat on it. I NEVER wear make up, I shave when I feel like it (or if my skirt wont cover under my knee) and I still look just fine.
Nobody has to wear make up or shave. Those things dont have to define one as a put together woman. I look very put together and professional even with no make up. And shaving? Nobody can even tell if a woman shaves, unless, like I said, you are wearing a skirt that shows the whole leg. Even then, Ive seen hairy legs in my days. Some women just dont shave. Its not this big terrible thing. Its all fine.
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Mommyg8
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:53 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | Im sorry, but NOBODY is being forced to shave any part of their body or put on make up or any of that. I literally brush my teeth and my hair in the morning (and then put a partial mitpachat on it. I NEVER wear make up, I shave when I feel like it (or if my skirt wont cover under my knee) and I still look just fine.
Nobody has to wear make up or shave. Those things dont have to define one as a put together woman. I look very put together and professional even with no make up. And shaving? Nobody can even tell if a woman shaves, unless, like I said, you are wearing a skirt that shows the whole leg. Even then, Ive seen hairy legs in my days. Some women just dont shave. Its not this big terrible thing. Its all fine. |
Love this!!!!
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Alternative
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:54 pm
First of all, people will definitely notice if I don't shave, even if I wear a skirt past my knee. A lot of us have hairy legs!
I know no one is forcing me to shave or put on make up. My observations and feelings reflect my own feelings on my position as a woman in society. No one is forcing my husband to shave either, or to cut his nails for that matter. But certain things reflect badly on people in our society, and where I live, it would be just as uncouth for a woman to come to the office with noticeably hairy legs, as for her to come with sweatpants.
I don't think this is uncommon, I've worked in many professions and lived in different places.
Yes, I think it is unfair, and I am sure Simone and her ilk are turning in their graves.
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Alternative
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Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:56 pm
| sequoia wrote: | laser hair removal is something that’s fairly new and caters to a specific aesthetic.
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Just a new way to deal with an age old societal desire to remove female body hair. Again, not fair, not my cup of tea, but it is what it is.
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