why do we not use the same fork

Motek

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 11:50 am

And I find it not astonishing at all. It's easy to see why we feel differently because to you, the sages of the Talmud were less knowledgeable than you are about modern science and health (among other things), so you are amazed that frum Jews are particular to avoid something the sages tell us to do while sometimes ignoring the warnings of the surgeon general.

I think it's makes perfect sense that Jews are faithful to statements of the sages that don't even seem relevant today, while sometimes being negligent of warnings of doctors that have only made their appearance in the past few decades.

Squash

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 12:08 pm

Motek wrote:

Okay motek, I hope you're sitting down. Cuz I actually agree with you!! Cheers

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 12:53 pm

Motek wrote:

But, Motek, you yourself brought sources above that show that the danger of fish/meat mixing today is minimal if nonexistent.

Look, I'm not suggesting that we suddenly abandon the custom of not eating fish with meat. I'm all for maintaining it, even if the original reason is no longer valid.

But even you would agree that far more people die of the effects of tobacco than die from mixing meat and fish. That being said, considering the fact that the original decree on fish/meat was only because of a danger to health (and not because it is inherently assur like meat and milk), I find it astounding that people will continue to give more credence to the assuring of fish/meat, which is clearly not so dangerous, but not smoking, which has been proven pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt to cause millions of deaths.

If I could only have one* enforced, I would have everyone eat meat and fish together and not smoke.

Tammy

*Of course, I'd like to have both... but if the choice were up to me...

Motek

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 1:58 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

But, Motek, you yourself brought sources above that show that the danger of fish/meat mixing today is minimal if nonexistent.

Or perhaps still prevalent as I quoted, "Other poskim rule that one should still not eat fish and meat together since Chazal may have been aware of a medical issue unknown to modern medicine."

Quote:

Look, I'm not suggesting that we suddenly abandon the custom of not eating fish with meat.

still calling it a custom when I showed it's a halacha, why?

Quote:

I find it astounding that people will continue to give more credence to the assuring of fish/meat, which is clearly not so dangerous, but not smoking, which has been proven pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt to cause millions of deaths.

I explained why you are astounded and I am not

Quote:

If I could only have one* enforced, I would have everyone eat meat and fish together and not smoke.

rather disappointing, since as a frum Jew, your allegiance should be to Chazal first.

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:07 pm

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

But, Motek, you yourself brought sources above that show that the danger of fish/meat mixing today is minimal if nonexistent.

Or perhaps still prevalent as I quoted, "Other poskim rule that one should still not eat fish and meat together since Chazal may have been aware of a medical issue unknown to modern medicine."

Perhaps. But there are grounds to say that it's not dangerous... as per the sources you brought. I'm not aware of any source, OTOH, that says that smoking is not life-threatening.

Quote:

Look, I'm not suggesting that we suddenly abandon the custom of not eating fish with meat.

still calling it a custom when I showed it's a halacha, why?

Poor choice of words on my part. I fully acknowledge that it is halacha.

Quote:

I explained why you are astounded and I am not

Quote:

If I could only have one* enforced, I would have everyone eat meat and fish together and not smoke.

rather disappointing, since as a frum Jew, your allegiance should be to Chazal first.

Let me get this straight...

If you had a choice to choose only one... that people either not eat fish and meat together, or not smoke, you'd choose the former??

Especially considering that (a) they are *both* assur and (b) the number of people who die from fish/meat mixtures is exceedingly small compared to the number of people who die from tobacco.

Do you really mean to tell me that in this case, it's disappointing that I want to save millions of lives??!!

Tammy

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:12 pm

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

Ruchel,

It's not something that affects the kashrus of the establishment like mixing meat and milk does... as long as they aren't cooked together, it's up to the individual to make sure s/he doesn't use the same fork for both.

Tammy

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:25 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

bluesclues

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:32 pm

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

I doubt it was a glatt kosher place

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:39 pm

bluesclues wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

I doubt it was a glatt kosher place

Glatt kosher vs. "standard" kosher has nothing to do with fish.

Tammy

bluesclues

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:41 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

bluesclues wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

I doubt it was a glatt kosher place

Glatt kosher vs. "standard" kosher has nothing to do with fish.

Tammy

a glatt kosher place would not serve a meat and fish pie

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:43 pm

bluesclues wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

bluesclues wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

I doubt it was a glatt kosher place

Glatt kosher vs. "standard" kosher has nothing to do with fish.

Tammy

a glatt kosher place would not serve a meat and fish pie

Nor should a non-glatt kosher place.

"Glatt" means "smooth" and refers to the condition of the lungs of the animal after slaughter. It has *nothing* to do with mixing meat and fish.

Tammy

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 25 2007, 2:44 pm

bluesclues wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

If it was halacha, kosher restaurants would all do it!

ok, I see
I think I remember a meat and fish pie I had once, though...

I doubt it was a glatt kosher place

I think not, I don't check it

TammyTammy

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 12:42 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Quote:

If I could only have one* enforced, I would have everyone eat meat and fish together and not smoke.

Motek wrote:

rather disappointing, since as a frum Jew, your allegiance should be to Chazal first.

Motek, I'm still waiting on an answer on this: Why is it disappointing that I'd want to save millions of lives? Of course, I'd love it if people didn't smoke *and* didn't eat fish with meat; but it seems to me that if you could only have one, you'd go with fish/meat and let people smoke and destroy millions of lives. Is that really what you're saying, or am I misinterpreting your words in calling my choice "disappointing?"

Tammy

TammyTammy

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 12:56 pm

Motek wrote:

I chose not to respond further. I said what I wanted to say.

Don't reword what I said to make it sound as though I am opposed to saving lives. That's a low blow.

I did not reword what you said.

I said that if I had to pick one issur for everyone to violate, I'd choose to have them violate meat/fish since it would save many lives. You said that that was "disappointing" since I owe my alliegence to Chazal.

How was I supposed to interpret that?

Tammy

Sue DaNym

Wed, Sep 26 2007, 1:23 pm

tammy
#1 if chazal said eating fish and meat is dangerous then its dangerous. and if they didnt say that smoking was dangerous (its not in the shulchan aruch) then by definition its not as dangerous as smoking.

#2 you dont know how many people die from eating fish and meat. probly alot of them are just marked as choking or the like. but if chazal said its dangerous then it is

#3 whats disappointing is the fact that youd tell people to go against whats directly written in the shulchan aruch in favor of some junk science.

Ruchel

Sat, Sep 29 2007, 2:40 pm

Junk science, sure... I wonder why so many frum people bother to go to university for science then!

Even if we count people who choked on a fishbone, people who died because of smoking are MUCH more numerous.

It is interesting because a quick search online gave me this: someone asking a rav if it is allowed to smoke. The rav starts by giving junk science polls showing that tobacco is extremely dangerous.

He goes on with "since we have these surveys, THE ISSUR OF SMOKING IS DEORAISA, according to Beer Moshé (6,160), Tsits Eliézer (15,39), ***é Leha Rav (1,42), Rav Batsri 'Diné Mamonot' (pirké moussar), Rav Volbé (Peer Tahat Efer 49), Rav Zalman Néhémia Goldberg (idem), and many others.

The most lenient say it is not Torah, "only" derabbanan: Rav Elyashiv, Az Nédabérou, Mishné halahot."