When Hebrew teachers make ALL non jews look bad

Mevater

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 10:22 pm

amother wrote:

"She" is never there with support, advice, or ideas - only provocation and a very obvious kind of "extremist" viewpoint. I plan to block "her" and I hope "she" will be investigated.

Quote:

Sue DaNym
Senior Member

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 198

Posted: Mon, Oct 08 2007, 6:06 pm Post subject: re: Please say tehillim for my Zaidy

im so sorry bracha. baruch dayan haemes. only simchas from here on

I don't know her, but never say never.

amother

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 10:56 pm

letsbehonest wrote:

amother wrote:

"She" is never there with support, advice, or ideas - only provocation and a very obvious kind of "extremist" viewpoint. I plan to block "her" and I hope "she" will be investigated.

Quote:

I don't know her, but never say never.

OK, how about 99% of the time then? Rolling Eyes

Worst of all, "she" seems to be trying to make Lubavitchers look rotten. She's like a poster child for some extremist, hateful, anti-everyone-else kind of Lubavitcher who is unlike any real Lubavitcher I have ever met. Twisted Evil

And I never (and I do mean NEVER) make personal comments about anyone - except in this one case - because I find "her" so offensive, and because I know others agree.

Still, if someone can come here and quote more than just a small handful of pleasant, helpful, useful, productive comments that Sue has made, or if anyone would like to stand up for "her" as being a real, hoenst-to-goodness married Jewish woman, I am all ears and will happily correct myself.

Motek

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 2:17 pm

amother wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

like motek said its a halacha eisav sonei lyakov. if a [gentile] does something nice for a yid its only bcuz they want to get something out of it.

Like almost certain death to themselves and their family? Rolling Eyes

You find it funny, hmmm. It says, "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself.

amother wrote:

I explained to him that non jews are regular, normal people with needs just like ours. The only difference between us and them is that we have the Torah and Mitzvos. I think he is starting to get it, BH

Nope. Kuzari explains that there are four levels in creation: inanimate, plant, vegetation, and human and above that, in a category all their own, are Jews. For the mystically inclined among us - gentiles are from the three impure kelipos like all forbidden things.

mumoo wrote:

I explained that when they say 'non jews' they do so in a historical sense and historically, non jews have generally been not so nice to Jews.

Not so nice ... like murdering, raping, hanging, dismembering, burning, torturing, drowning ... Soooo not nice!

Tamiri wrote:

It's horrible for our people to walk around like we are better. We really aren't. We are just am nivchar but don't ask me why. Am ksheh oref - now THAT I can understand.

We're not better but we're the Chosen Nation but you don't know why, yet you say it's horrible for us to think we're better Confused

How about learning about why you're called chosen, and special, and holy, before deciding what is and isn't horrible?

Yes, we need to be respectful of the people around us and make a kiddush Hashem. Yes, there are kind, G-d fearing non-Jews. Some are followers of the 7 Noahide Laws. Some, as history has shown, have turned ugly and turned on their friends the Jews when given the opportunity.

mummiedearest

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 9:27 pm

to those of you whose daughters are experiencing bad teaching methods in the classroom:

have them research non-jews who are known for saving the lives of jews during the holocaust, make sure they know the names well, and have them bring these names up in class next time the teachers paints a broad stroke. make sure they do it in question form in an EXTREMELY respectful manner. the teacher may not change teaching methods, but it will at least inform the other students.

tzatza

Fri, Nov 16 2007, 9:50 am

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

like motek said its a halacha eisav sonei lyakov. if a [gentile] does something nice for a yid its only bcuz they want to get something out of it.

Like almost certain death to themselves and their family? Rolling Eyes

You find it funny, hmmm. It says, "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself.

amother wrote:

mumoo wrote:

I explained that when they say 'non jews' they do so in a historical sense and historically, non jews have generally been not so nice to Jews.

Not so nice ... like murdering, raping, hanging, dismembering, burning, torturing, drowning ... Soooo not nice!

Tamiri wrote:

It's horrible for our people to walk around like we are better. We really aren't. We are just am nivchar but don't ask me why. Am ksheh oref - now THAT I can understand.

We're not better but we're the Chosen Nation but you don't know why, yet you say it's horrible for us to think we're better Confused

As far as the original idea, where I came from, there is winter 6-7 months out of the year and people used to ask me if there are Polar bears walking on the streets:) We are all bombarded by stereotypes at some points, but I do strongly strongly agree that it is absolutely disgusting when all non jews are painted bad. We have to remember, that as far as children are concerned, they see the world in black and white, so it is hard to go into lengthy explanations, that there are grey shades, etc.

edited by mod2

Motek

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 5:48 pm

amother wrote:

A Biblical scholar, after reading this quote directly from Baba Basra 10, advised me that Leumim means nations, and does NOT refer to any specific person. It speaks in general terms and does NOT condemn any person or nation specifically.

Those that want to take every world literally w/o analysis by Gedolim, ought not to use electricity on Shabbos. "Lo TiVaaru Aish....."

amother - who is the Biblical scholar?

The verse does NOT refer to any specific person (did anybody say it does?). It refers to non-Jews. And it's a verse in Mishlei 14:34. See Rashi there where he says these are the gentiles who rob from this one and give to that one ("Robin Hood").

amother

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 8:08 pm

Motek wrote:

You find it funny, hmmm. It says, "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself.

I challenge you to find ONE Gadol who will find any Posuk anywhere in the Torah that teaches us to look for the ulterior motive of all non-Jews at all times, when helping Jews.

Biblical scholar, who is Litvish, but a Chasid of every Rov and Rebbe, prefers to remain nameless (because he doesn't feel he's the last word on anything) recommends the book "The Pleasant Way" (Sefer Darchei Noam) - adapted from the teachings of R' Pam, by Rabbi Sholom Smith to you and all.

mumoo

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 8:44 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

It is difficult to be respectful while publicly "correcting" a teacher. I just make sure my children know. She can speak to her friends outside of class. It's not her job to educate her teachers. It may be that the teachers who would welcome this information already know it while the ones who need to know it would NOT welcome it.

mummiedearest

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 8:55 pm

mumoo--

it's not as hard as it seems to be entirely respectful to teachers when dealing with such a subject. I did not mean the girls should correct the teachers, rather question them on the subject. this is the proper way to learn. asking the teacher to explain how these non-jews differ from the generalized ones in the teacher's statements can be done in a proper, respectful manner, and any teacher should really appreciate an educated question.

Toot

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 9:42 pm

As a teacher, I have been put in a similar situation. I teach in a Modern Orthodox school, with many teachers whose hashkafa is to the right of the school (mine is the same as the school's). My girls have mentioned that their teacher from last year made negative sweeping statements about non Jews like the ones mentioned in these posts, and they asked me if they were true.

I don't want to undermine their former teachers, but I do believe that non Jews are not inherently evil, and while we have suffered at their hands in the past, we BH live in a world where we do not worry about Crusades and pogroms. (I am limited these comments to the Christian community and historical antisemitism, not the more modern phenomenon of fundamentalist Islamic jihad which results in terrorism in Israel. I think that is a different issue than the one at hand).

In any case, I say to my students that some Jews have a more insular approach to dealing with the non Jewish community, and some people, myself (and probably most of their parents) included, believe that it is not ok to make blanket statement about how non Jews are evil, and that we can even learn something from non Jews, especially the ones who show tolerance and sensitivity towards others, not to mention those who risked their lives to save Jews.

amother

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 10:12 pm

mumoo wrote:

How true. I agree. Some teachers would consider it Chutzpah to show another point of view in Frumkeit. Look at some of the posters here, and they're not years older than others and in front of the classroom.

mugsisme

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 12:51 pm

I find these types of comments (non jews are bad) to be very elitist. What separates these comments from the same similar types of comments made by a certain political party 75 years ago who said that only people with blond hair and blue eyes were good? Why is it any different? The best comment here was not all non jews are bad and not all yidden are good. I don't think we should be looking down our noses at the non jews.

Leah

amother

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 12:59 pm

amother wrote:

Motek wrote:

You find it funny, hmmm. It says, "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself.

This post was edited, and not marked as such. Can you find any Gadol that will define "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself, as you did?

Piper

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:50 pm

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

like motek said its a halacha eisav sonei lyakov. if a [gentile] does something nice for a yid its only bcuz they want to get something out of it.

Like almost certain death to themselves and their family? Rolling Eyes

You find it funny, hmmm. It says, "chesed l'umim chatas" - the kindness that a gentile does, is for himself.

amother wrote:

mumoo wrote:

I explained that when they say 'non jews' they do so in a historical sense and historically, non jews have generally been not so nice to Jews.

Not so nice ... like murdering, raping, hanging, dismembering, burning, torturing, drowning ... Soooo not nice!

Tamiri wrote:

It's horrible for our people to walk around like we are better. We really aren't. We are just am nivchar but don't ask me why. Am ksheh oref - now THAT I can understand.

We're not better but we're the Chosen Nation but you don't know why, yet you say it's horrible for us to think we're better Confused

Motek, I wish sometimes that you quote your sources.

What she wrote can be found in Tanya (Lubavitch Chassidus)