Objections to Harry Potter?

TammyTammy

Thu, Oct 25 2007, 1:17 pm

EstiS wrote:

did anyone actually say they are afraid their daughter will become wiccan or gothic? Confused

or were the objections raised here based on the hashkafic view against sorcery?

From earlier in the thread (bolding mine):

Quote:

Yes I am concerned that my children might be influenced by the witchcraft part. There are kids and adults out there who practice it as a religion,it is called wicca. Actually it is pretty popular right now in the world. Along with the whole goth trend. I wonder how many jewish children have been influenced by this. It is out there and I am just as concerned about it as I would be by missionarys trying to convert my kids.
Why should I let them read the stuff and be comfortable with it. Would you let your child watch "The Blair Witch Project" or other movie full of sorcery etc ? It is the same thing only it is on paper.

Tammy

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, Oct 25 2007, 3:50 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

EstiS wrote:

did anyone actually say they are afraid their daughter will become wiccan or gothic? Confused

or were the objections raised here based on the hashkafic view against sorcery?

From earlier in the thread (bolding mine):

Quote:

Yes I am concerned that my children might be influenced by the witchcraft part. There are kids and adults out there who practice it as a religion,it is called wicca. Actually it is pretty popular right now in the world. Along with the whole goth trend. I wonder how many Jewish children have been influenced by this. It is out there and I am just as concerned about it as I would be by missionarys trying to convert my kids.
Why should I let them read the stuff and be comfortable with it. Would you let your child watch "The Blair Witch Project" or other movie full of sorcery etc ? It is the same thing only it is on paper.

Tammy

ok I had forgotten that and missed it the second time around.
I think that with a strong foundation in yidishkeit a kid can read this things viewing it as fantasy and the above post may be far fetched
however.....

its not so much that I would be afraid that kids will become witches and leave yidishkeit, its more that, they become de-sensitized to our own hashkafic views.
And yes the more shtus we fill them with that contradicts torah views, the more desensitized they become.

why do I view HP as worse then some other things? because it explicitly deals with a concept that torah holds as evil.
I saw a book once that was also a fantasy related book but when reading it to the end, one becomes aware that it is x-tian flavored book.

I would put HP in the same category as giving kids a x-tian flavored book to read.

would you allow your kids to read a book that was fantasy related but the good guy in the book was yoshke?
but its fantasy? your kid won't become a yoshke follower by reading it, what's the big deal?

heres a question: why are we not allowed to look at a cross?
why are we not allowed to wear one?
after all its a symbol of religion to the x-tians but to us its just two sticks crossed over each other, so why can't we?

the reason is because we aren't allowed to look upon anything that's considered a deity other then G-d by others and since a cross is a symbol of what others consider a deity other then G-d, we aren't allowed to look upon it.

In the same vein, we don't want to be giving children reading material that is about a subject the Torah holds as evil, regardless of its affect over us.

gryp

Thu, Oct 25 2007, 5:33 pm

I read the first HP book, found it lying around in another house I was visiting. Two things surprised me:
a) it was completely clean of boy/girl relationships (which I have a bigger issue with than the sorcery. I mentioned that to someone who read the entire series and he told me that the later books aren't clean to my standards.)
b) I don't understand the HP craze that's been going on for years.

Although I practically grew up in the public library Smile

I don't want non-Jewish books in my home, nor do I want my kids reading them.

gryp

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 7:21 am

Quote:

In France, in school the kids will read some classics, it's part of the course.

Here too, in the girls schools. I think there is a seperate track for some grades without them, I'm not sure.

I'm not worried about my kids having any reading pleasure from Dickens, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Moby D-ick, or whatever. It's highly unlikely they would graduate from those to the regular fiction books out there.

Btw, getting back to the OP, I saw an article from drudge yesterday about a Catholic school who banned Harry Potter because of the witchcraft.

Last edited by gryp on Fri, Oct 26 2007, 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

TammyTammy

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 7:47 am

EstiS wrote:

why do I view HP as worse then some other things? because it explicitly deals with a concept that torah holds as evil.
I saw a book once that was also a fantasy related book but when reading it to the end, one becomes aware that it is x-tian flavored book.

I would put HP in the same category as giving kids a x-tian flavored book to read.

would you allow your kids to read a book that was fantasy related but the good guy in the book was yoshke?
but its fantasy? your kid won't become a yoshke follower by reading it, what's the big deal?

As a matter of fact, I have let my kids read The Chronicles of Narnia. They simply are unaware of the meaning behind the story... much like my oldest was unaware of the meaning behind Animal Farm when he read it for the first time.

Quote:

the reason is because we aren't allowed to look upon anything that's considered a deity other then G-d by others and since a cross is a symbol of what others consider a deity other then G-d, we aren't allowed to look upon it.

You do realize, of course, that Christians do *not* worship the cross, right?

Quote:

In the same vein, we don't want to be giving children reading material that is about a subject the Torah holds as evil, regardless of its affect over us.

That's fine... I can understand that, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. However, I then refer you back to the question that I asked earlier in this thread... there are other things that the Torah considers evil. Eating non-kosher food is called a "toeivah." Do you also not let your kids read books involving non-Jews who eat shrimp?

Tammy

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Oct 27 2007, 5:41 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Kids are more perceptive then we realize, but that aside, there are things that may get filed away and when they get older those things may crop up and affect their way of thinking. I can't get specific because I'm not too familiar with the chron of nar.

Quote:

You do realize, of course, that Christians do *not* worship the cross, right?

The cross is a symbol of Yoshke who they consider to be a deity. Something which is a symbol or picture of something that is considered by others to be a deity other then Hashem we are not allowed to look upon.

Quote:

Do you also not let your kids read books involving non-Jews who eat shrimp?

LOL tammy....
If the book is centered around the health benefits of eating shrimp and ideas for seafood meals, then there is no reason for Kosher eating kids or adults to have an interest in the book.

if it just so happens that a kid in the book is eating shrimp but shrimp is not one of the main focuses in the book then that is different, although I would try to avoid a book centered around treif eating.

TammyTammy

Sun, Oct 28 2007, 1:00 pm

EstiS wrote:

Quote:

You do realize, of course, that Christians do *not* worship the cross, right?

No, you're wrong. I don't want to get into an extended discussion on Christian theology, but the cross is not a symbol for Yoshke. It's a symbol of (according to their theology) his suffering and dying to allow everyone to be forgiven of sin. It's a symbol of self-sacrifice and love (as they maintain), not a symbol for himself. As such, they don't worship the cross.

Quote:

Do you also not let your kids read books involving non-Jews who eat shrimp?

So, I suppose Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is out in your house? (Since Wonka most certainly didn't use a reliable hechsher).

Tammy

mugsisme

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 7:53 am

You may also want to rethink A Wrinkle In Time, as Madaleine L'Engle was a religious [gentile]. Dump Alice in Wonderland, since the caterpillar was smoking mushroom. Don't let your high schooler read To Kill a Mocking Bird. I think Shakespeare is also not good. If they read Merchant of Venice, they may think Jews are cheap, money-hungry greedy pigs.

Seriously, I find that a lot of people who object to HP haven't even read the books. We can even find that in this thread where people have said they read one book, or they didn't read it at all.

I let my kids read the Narnia books, but not see the movie.

I do NOT think HP should be objected too based on witch craft. Object to it based on it is a secular book, but not the witch craft. I read tons of books on witch craft when I was younger (and not frum). I didn't turn into a witch, or think of wicca. Hey, I never even tried to cast a spell! For me, personally, I enjoy fantasy. And science fiction. Which you don't see any of in the frum books.

Leah

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Nov 17 2007, 7:16 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

No, you're wrong. I don't want to get into an extended discussion on Christian theology, but the cross is not a symbol for YOSHKE. It's a symbol of (according to their theology) his suffering and dying to allow everyone to be forgiven of sin. It's a symbol of self-sacrifice and love (as they maintain), not a symbol for himself. As such, they don't worship the cross.

umm I wonder why the religious christian woman I had this conversation with didn't tell me that.
why then do christians cross themselves when praying and kiss the cross? (all acts of avoida zora)

btw, I take issue with you saying things like "you're wrong"
what gives you the right to determine who is right or wrong. are you a mavin in christian theology to be able to come along and pasken that I'm wrong?

Bichlal the mockery on this thread is disrespectfull to people who make the decision to eliminate these books from their home.
To me it sounds like the hype is so out of contol about HP that fans need to disparage anyone who don't like the books.

TammyTammy wrote:

So, I suppose Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is out in your house? (Since Wonka most certainly didn't use a reliable hechsher).

very funny Rolling Eyes

do I even need to explain how chocolate and ham don't compare?

mugsisme, are you aware that in a wrinkle of time one of the heros in the book who tried to fight "the brain" was yoshke?

mugsisme

Sat, Nov 17 2007, 7:32 pm

EstiS wrote:

mugsisme, are you aware that in a wrinkle of time one of the heros in the book who tried to fight "the brain" was yoshke?

Esti, I didn't realize that. I re-read this book to my 9 year old a year ago, and I didn't even pick up on it then. but it does make total sense, since I know she was very religious. I haven't decided if I have a problem with it or not. I do let my kids read the Narnia series too.

You know what I do get? why are there so few really well written books out there for kids that are frum books???? Why do certain frum companies keep popping out books one after the other with plot holes and typos and just don't see to care? My only problem with HP now is that fact she let out recently about Dumbledore, and truthfully, it has ruined the story for me. It is just gross and demented and I won't be re-reading this series again.

Leah