I have nothing with yom hashoa

5mom

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 4:00 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

I just WROTE that yesterday 🙄

You did, and I apologize for not being clearer. Further, I absolutely agree with you that our energy and money are better spent on the living than on the dead.

I do think that spending a day contemplating how close to home this was, and how quickly and easily it happened, generally arouses a sense of vulnerability and of thanks for where we are today.

LovesHashem

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 4:42 am

5mom wrote:

Not at all. But you might want to read up on Holland during the war. The myth of the heroic Dutch resistance doesn't match up with the reality that Holland has the highest percentage in western Europe of Jews murdered in WW2. The Dutch gave up their Jews more willingly than they gave up their bicycles.

Wow so interesting. I went to Amsterdam and went on a tour and was taught they sacrificed themselves in amersterdam for the jews of the city and rioted when Hitler came. Is this not true?

Chickensoupprof

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 4:43 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Wow so interesting. I went to Amsterdam and went on a tour and was taught they sacrificed themselves in amersterdam for the jews of the city and rioted when Hitler came. Is this not true?

It's true the Februaristaking it was. It was amazing but it was the only one then the Dutch became indifferent mostly. And after the WWII especially communist Dutch people who were in resistance were followed because they could have Russian sympathies.

LovesHashem

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 4:48 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

Yes. I learned it was the only strike of its kind. Fascinating history.

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 7:55 am

etky wrote:

I didn't reference the military victory. I mentioned that the rabbis of the Talmud, who established Chanukah as a fixed observance, felt that the renewal of political sovereignty under the Hasmoneans was a reason for celebration despite this regimes' subsequent slide into corruption and Hellenization.

It wasn't 100% clear to me from the context.

dancingqueen

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 11:08 am

keym wrote:

It seems like there are actually 2 different conversations going on.

1) the importance of remembering the Holocaust and telling the next generation the stories

2) actually doing it on Yom Hashoah

I think that if people individually or community feel uncomfortable with Yom Hashoah (because of the original emphasis on the Warsaw ghetto heroes, because it's in Nissan) but make sure to do it other times, then it's ok.

I know my kids Schools and camps do programs on Asara Bteves (the day set aside for Kaddish) and Tisha Bav (the day that Chazal instituted for all Jewish tragedies).

Internationally, Holocaust Remembrance Day is in December - the day Auschwitz was liberated.

The problem with everyone having different days to commemorate the Shoah is that it dilutes the message, and just being honest it feels a little divisive for Chareidi people to say that we don't like your day of commemoration and we refuse to join in with you. Obviously everyone can do what they want but that's how it comes off to me.

I think now more than ever with real Nazis coming back into the news along with other Jew haters who have no compunctions about being anti-semitic, it's more important than ever to publicly commemorate Yom Hashoah. If even Jews feel apathetic about it now, no wonder the rest of the world does.

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 11:10 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Acknowledge it, maybe. But not at the expense of tying it into our history on the established days.

keym

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 11:18 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I hear. Really.
And I'm torn.
In conversations with big Rabbanim, there seem to be 3 main issues with the day of Yom Hashoah on 27 Nissan.

1) the hashkafic of commemorating the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising date as opposed to the day Auschwitz was liberated or the first train to Auschwitz or something. It gives a subtle message of celebrating those who fought and denigrating 'sheep led to slaughter '. The 70 year old Galus Jew vs Sabra fighter

2) there's a halachic problem of choosing a national day of mourning during Nissan when we don't say tachanun.

3) the fact is that the Holocaust is one of the most recent, but in the global sense, it wasn't the biggest and worst. Churban #1, Churban #2, Beitar, Crusades, Tach Vtat- Chazal gave us a day to commemorate all of them- Tisha Bav.

On the other hand, I do hear your concern about diluting the message.

Happy247

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 12:09 pm

I also think there should be more emphasis on studying the history of how it came about, not just about the atrocities (atrocities too! Don't get me wrong! But that should not be the ONLY focus).
Those who dont know history are doomed to repeat it. It didn't start with concentration and death camps it started with tiny steps years before that. Also about their brainwashing and propaganda.

Making sure it's in every school's curriculum at least once in middle school and once in high school would be a good start. (And I think more effective at having future generations relate and remember than one day a year without too much depth.)

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 27 2023, 8:38 am

Happy247 wrote:

I think studying the historical and sociological background is crucial. But there needs to be more. If the teacher isn't equipped to offer it, it will have to come from someone else who's got Holocaust education training with a hashkafic basis.

farmom

Thu, Apr 27 2023, 9:44 am

keym wrote:

I agree with your other comments, just noting that there is a day to commemorate Tach vTat. It's chof Sivan, the date of the massacre in Nemirov which started it all. For many years it was a fast day.

Crookshanks

Thu, Apr 27 2023, 9:46 pm

salt wrote:

Yom Hashoah/Yom hazikaron are different to Yom Haazmaut /Yom yerushalayim.

Yom haatzmaut and yom yerushalyaim mark dates in history that according to some opinions, based in the gemarah, should be marked with thanksgiving and hallel (there are certain halachic conditions - as far as I learnt, they apply more certainly to Yom Yerushalyaim than to Yom Haaztmanut, since Am yisrael were actually saved from death on that day) but I don't know the details of the halachic discourse.

Yom hazikaron was set for the day before Yom Haatzmaut as a logical and significant time to mark it, to remember that in the merit of the fallen, we have a state - I don't think there is anything religious about Yom hazikaron, it's more national/official.

Yom Hashoah was chosen on the day of the Warsaw uprising - it's also not religious as far as I know. Yom kaddish klali is actually 10 Tevet, and 9 Av we traditionally remember all tragedies that befell the Jewish people.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but the date of Yom Hazikaron is not random. It commemorates the fall of the defenders of Gush Etzion, which happened the day before Israel was established.