Inviting OTD family members to a simcha

amother

Plum

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 8:43 am

I grew up with nonfrum relatives who grew up similarly to my father (shomer shabbos, etc.). My father became chareidi as an adult, and his cousins became very not -- they joined a socialist kibbutz in EY and became very chiloni.
Throughout my childhood (and even today) they continue to be invited to all our smachot, they turn up in their chinos and polo shirts and sandalim, and short sleeved tops/pantsuits (for the women). But with big smiles on their faces, and they come so happily. My father (with his beard and everything) goes to greet them when they come and embraces his cousin every single time. Is it embarrassing for him? Maybe
But he never ever shows it. To him, family is family, and they lost so much in the Holocaust that he's not prepared to alienate any of them. I am in touch sporadically with one of the cousins from my generation, we don't socialize but I send family photos and invitations to our smachot as well.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 8:59 am

WhatFor wrote:

If Sarah comes over to you that mutual friend Rivka disrespected her; she doesn't want to tell you what Rivka did; just take her word for it that Rivka intentionally disrespected her, and she wants you to validate how rude Rivka was, you'd feel comfortable doing so without specifics? We all know that these issues turn on the specifics.

I'd tell her that I don't want to hear her loshon hara and that if she posts anonymously about it, to not let someone else anonymous bully her into giving possibly identifying details.

amother

Dandelion

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 11:11 am

WhatFor wrote:

Oh, please. Requesting a single basic example of what exactly it is that they do that's disrespectful is not "nitty gritty details". It's literally asking to state what the issue is. As soon as someone asks for that you no longer have time for this thread? Sure thing.

Anyway, mazal tov and I hope you enjoy your simcha.

She said provocative... Most people can put the pieces together. I doubt she's talking about a professional looking skirt with a descent looking top...

amother

Dandelion

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 11:20 am

HonesttoGod wrote:

I want to come at it from the other side.
I have relatives who are ultra orthodox chasidish. Think shpitzel, no makeup at weddings, etc.

They always. Always. Invite me to their simchas. And I don’t dress how they do at all. I come to their simchas in a dress that they’d probably deem mini (it covers my knees but definitely not their standards). I have a long wig.
I wear heels and at one Simcha one of their guests kept trying to pull my sleeves down longer than elbow length.

I’m very respectful. I’m not looking for attention. I’m going to share in their Simcha and I’m genuinely happy to be there. I just don’t own mid length frocks and a shpitzel. I dress in my own wardrobe, respectfully.

Maybe they just want to join to be part of your Simcha. Maybe they really want to come because they really want to celebrate and see everyone.

You did nothing wrong in terms of Halacha, and you definitely don't have to look chassidush if you aren't, but I do think there is something important about knowing the standards of a community and somewhat following it when you are visiting.

I don't think you have to wear a diff sheitel or thick tights, but wearing the longer skirt for the sake of the community or wearing sleeves all the way down to the wrist or wearing flats, is something to consider.

Reminds me of when we were in seminary there was a rule that if you go to meah shearim wear your hair up for the sake of respecting the community. This concept of "it's just not me" and "I feel fake" is wrong if you are choosing to enter a place that is not yours.

amother

Cyclamen

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 11:46 am

I have more than one close relative who is OTD. I love them and I respect that they have made this choice of lifestyle. But when you talk of respect, I will respect their right to live their life as they have chosen, but it goes both ways. The same way people don't turn up to a professional business meeting in beach wear, you should be dressing appropriately for the occasion you are going to.
One relative will be respectful of us, while another is desperately seeking attention and wants to be deliberately provocative for our reactions. She will come to the family simcha dressed in something that pushes the boundaries-the skirt is to her knees, but may be transparent, or wearing tight trousers, or a top that barely covers her cleavage.
And we all go out of our way to be friendly to her, to talk about topics she is interested in, usually odd topics at that. And then she will turn around after and say no one was friendly with her and we all ignored her. Which is not true.
And she will preach about being liberal and accepting and tolerant, but the tolerance is only for LGBT, or liberal causes. Not for us religious people. If she went to a muslim event, she would probably dress appropriately because she will talk about how you have to respect others and dress how they would be comfortable with. But that respect isn't there for us.

amother

Yolk

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 12:45 pm

Highstrung wrote:

This entire topic is really not about dress. It’s about mutual respect . I have literally the opposite problem sometimes , with overly zealous fanatically farfrumt relatives who would destroy my Simcha because they love riling up people or making drama over something . If my OTD sibling behaved this way , causing drama , riling people up or intentionally disrupting my Simcha , then both people , in both categories would not be invited again to my simchos. I don’t care if you believe you’re holier than God himself or whether you don’t believe there is a God. As long as you respect me and the guests and family at my Simcha then please we’d love to have you . The moment you start your shtick and behave disrespectfully , you are no longer welcome until you can prove your respect .

omg are you related to me? I had a cousin try to safety pin a child's dress at the top because she felt it was too revealing. This was a wedding of one of my siblings and the child was my cousin. All it did was scare the child and make the mom angry.

Phoebe31

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 12:48 pm

IMO, invite them, they are not a reflection on you.

Maybe think about it from their perspective, if they grew up frum, they probably had tznius shoved down their throats and you telling them to dress a certain way triggers that. You can ask them to dress appropriately but dont expect them to come in long sleeves and covering their knees. As long as they aren't undressed, who cares?

amother

Aqua

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 9:24 pm

The women need to come wearing a skirt or dress that covers most of the thigh. And some sort of sleeve. Your event, your dress code. I'm sure they don't only own pants.
My non religious relatives always respect my parties and come in a skirt.
Respect is a 2 way street. You respect their lifestyle choice and they respect the dress code at your event.

amother

Aqua

Tue, Jun 20 2023, 9:46 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

I’m not getting this that I have to respect their lifestyle choice of chillul Shabbos and what not. Sorry, I don’t respect that, big huge NOT. I’m not judging them, but I won’t respect it. It’s not a two way street in this matter.

We can't tell adults how religious they should be. When I say respect, I don't mean approval.
I mean respecting the fact that they are mature adults who made an adult decision . Yes, it is sad that they aren't as religious anymore. But we need to respect people at the level they are at and daven for them.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Jun 21 2023, 2:35 am

ShishKabob wrote:

When I say respect - I don't mean acceptance and approval of there lifestyle.
Obviously, as Torah jews that is out of the question.

What I mean by respect is extending them the same kind of respect we expect someone else to extend to us when we are the ones with a different lifestyle.

So imagine working in a secular environment. We would like respect from our non- jewish co-workers and bosses for the fact that we can't eat the food, will dress a certain way, cant attend certain events ect. It is fine that they think we are crazy, backwards and what not as long as they don't pressure us, make fun of us, or make us feel uncomfortable.

I believe we need to extend the same respect to OTD family. Obviously this is a two way street and if they are being obnoxious this wont work, but in general when they feel the respect they tone down the rebelliousness and obnoxiousness.

Again, I found that if I extend understanding of how inauthentic and wrong it feels for them to show up looking "frum" or "frumish", we can usually find compromises on something that feels authentic to them and who they are, without being incredibly provocative and inappropriate.

amother

Bottlebrush

Wed, Jun 21 2023, 7:45 am

Based on many of the responses I'm reading, it seems like the question would've been, "how can I overcome my feelings of insecurity and fully and genuinely accept my relatives regardless of how they dress"?
Well, that was not the question. I believe OP knows that she can go that route.
She stated in her OP that she "knows she shouldn't be embarrassed, but she is."
Fact.
So now, feeling the way she's feeling, should she invite?
2 reasons for inviting, as stated in OP.
1) they're family; 2) doesn't want to hurt them.
Well, family won't change regardless of whether you invite or not. Of course we want to cultivate better relationships with family. I believe though, that the act of inviting can either draw closer or create a greater gap. It all depends on the feelings, as the energy and subliminal messages will be felt. So, for this particular situation, where OP will be upset if they don't dress accordingly, she should set the conditions for her to be able to welcome while keeping her integrity. As soon as her boundaries are crossed, her feelings of resentment will be felt. This will NOT in any way make the relatives feel more accepted.

Highstrung

Wed, Jun 21 2023, 8:34 am

ShishKabob wrote:

Respect them as a person , for being created in the tzelem elokim. Nobody said to respect their choices . It’s two different things. Treat them kindly like you would want to be treated. You don’t need to accept nor embrace their choices.

amother

Tan

Thu, Jun 22 2023, 2:54 pm

It does sound like they're being disrespectful, either intentionally or because they just don't care. That said, I really don't think it moves the focus that much unless the wedding will consist almost entirely of busybodies. We invited our Sikh neighbors to our weddings, and they showed up in their turbans and robes. Definitely a stand out at a frum wedding and yet it didn't detract from the simcha. If they'll be there with a pleasant attitude, I think it'll be fine.