4 yr old & lights on Shabbos

amother

Holly

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:38 pm

The lights are different than a TV imo. There is nothing fun about lights. You can tell her that we don't turn the lights on and off on shabbos.
A TV is a bit more complicated just because she wants to watch something. Any time she asks to watch TV om shabbos I would explain that hashem doesn't want us to watch TV on shabbos, but we can.... and then offer to do something she enjoys like a special game, going to the park, read a book, etc. If you substitute it for something else she enjoys on shabbos and spemd time with her then she won't negatively associate it.

amother

Holly

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:40 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well actually, these feelings come from the first time she asked for TV on Shabbos, I told her we don't watch on Shabbos... so she asked when Shabbos would be over so she can ask me again then.

There is nothing wrong with her wanting to watch TV and saying we will do it when its not shabbos.
Do you know why you have such strong feelings towards her feelings about shabbos?

amother

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:40 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Let setting everything for shabbos be her job. She can turn on the lights for shabbos every week, and she can decorate and put on the covers. Tell her that we leave the light on special so they can greet shabbos and give us light the whole shabbos.

This is a great idea, thank you!

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well actually, these feelings come from the first time she asked for TV on Shabbos, I told her we don't watch on Shabbos... so she asked when Shabbos would be over so she can ask me again then.

This is very age appropriate.
It's our job as parents to instill a simcha a the beauty of Shabbos in our children, in our home. It is age appropriate for young kids to want to do melacha, we just need to be patient with them, the stage will pass ih.

amother

Darkblue

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:47 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well the AC is always a no even during the week. I let her touch the lights during the week.
My problem is that she is constantly touching lights on Shabbos so I would be reminding her at least 6 times over Shabbos not to touch the lights. That's a lot of times to hear "you are not allowed to..."
I don't think anybody wants to constantly be told they really shouldn't do something.
We don't drive a car on Shabbos but that isn't something that seems to be a problem for her and she is aware of the halacha. She never asks to go in the car on Shabbos.

You don't have to chastise her for touching the lights but you can say a positive reminder like "remember, on Shabbos we leave the lights the way they are". And give her some positive feedback for listening.

I hear that you are worried about being negative but it seems like you might be overthinking this.

amother

Peru

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 2:58 pm

We start at around age 2. "We don't do x on shabbos, but we do get yummy treats" and then give them a shabbos treat (unless they just had one, then we remind them about the one they just had). Generally costs me three small treats per week

amother

Amber

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 3:41 pm

Put strong tape over the lights. You can have her do it. It isn't like covers that can be easily moved aside, it physically blocks the switches from being turned on/off. If you do this and she doesn't complain, telling her it is a problem for shabbos shouldn't bother her. And if she does complain because she wants to turn them on/off, see below.

Apparently when I was little I was very upset about not watching TV on shabbos and would have tantrums about it, asked my parents to do shabbos timer like we do for the air conditioning, etc. But I don't remember most of it because I was young (and I got over it). And my parents said no and talked to me about the spirit of shabbos and held firm on the rule. I never disliked shabbos. I disliked not being able to watch tv, but I always liked shabbos. Don't be afraid to give your kids rules from Judaism that they may not like. It is something we have to accept - I don't like fasting or family purity, but I do them anyway, because from an early age I learned there are rules and they aren't always exactly what I want, both from my parents (e.g., I can't watch tv whenever I want during the week either) and from Judaism (e.g., no tv on shabbos). Unless you let her watch tv every time she asks every day, saying no in shabbos is not any different than saying no during the week (unless you make it different). My kids have rules about the amount of screen time they can have on different days and they know in advance. So if I say no on shabbos, it is not a surprise, I just remind them what I told them.

Also, my mother always talked about how the shabbos candles give us special light just for shabbos and would purposely leave off the light where the candles were, and left the others on for where the candles didn't reach. It created a warm cozy atmosphere and I loved having the lights set up in a special way just for shabbos, and I liked having them that way every week and I was in charge of setting them up. Maybe this can work for you too.

penguin

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 5:24 pm

What you need is a cover that's not so easy to remove, not the magnetic one. There's one that you attach with a screw and pretty childproof (at least I think so, I don't have it...)

Maybe like this

amother

Seablue

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 5:57 pm

amother OP wrote:

Hi sorry, I did not mean that I don't want her to know we can't touch lights on Shabbos.
Just for the past 2 years, whenever I see her about to do it I say "remember we don't do that on Shabbos" or if she did it already I say "we weren't really supposed to do that on Shabbos". She knows the halachos. If I was knowingly doing melacha, I wouldn't want someone reminding me of it every time.
I once spoke to parenting expert about child wanting to watch TV on Shabbos, and I was told that instead of saying we don't do that on Shabbos to say we are not doing it right now because we don't want the child to not like Shabbos cuz then they can't watch TV

She is very aware of the concept of Shabbos! We even have special toys & books for Shabbos, we eat all her favorite foods... she looks forward to Shabbos.

If she plays with a muktza toy I don't tell her off for it- correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't think she can understand what makes something muktza and doesn't, but the lights effect our life so that is an issue...

You can definitely buy switch covers but if you don’t want to (since it will only be necessary for a short time) then just tape down the light switches. You can have her help you tape them or even make that her “shabbos job”. If you see her about to turn on/off a light then it is proper to remind her not to, but it doesn’t have to be done in a reprimanding way, you can make up a song with her about things we don’t do on shabbos and special things we do do and start to singing it when you see her about to turn on the light. You don’t have to make up a song you can just sing any shabbos song she already knows to remind her it’s shabbos, you can take her hands and start dancing with her while singing a shabbos song, you can stop her from turning on the light in a positive way. Yes there will be some times you won’t be able to sing or dance and will just straight out remind her it’s shabbos we don’t turn on the light, but if you do not hold fear in causing her distress about it she won’t feel distress over it. There are hundreds of thousands of mothers that tell their young children that they can’t turn on/off lights on shabbos and I have NEVER in my life heard of it impacting a child with negative associations with shabbos (I unfortunately have experience with children that do feel negatively towards being frum and guarantee you it comes from much more severe experiences. Once they are already angry and upset with keeping mitzvos due to severe negative experiences from those that promote themselves as Torah leaders then they will complain about everything (“ and why can’t I turn on the light anyway….) but it’s not because they were told the halachos and not to turn on a light at 4yrs old. I promise you that! There’s zero reason to fear it will cause any negative feelings. There are only 2 reasons it would or could cause a negative feeling in your DD. You holding fear of her experiencing a negative association, will automatically cause your DD to absorb your negative feelings and fear around it. There is nothing to fear, it can’t cause a 4yr old harm to be taught they can’t turn on a tv or light on shabbos. It is essential you dismiss this “parenting expert” advice. Just because someone promotes themselves as a parenting expert, doesn’t mean they are. In fact 99% of those that call themselves “parenting experts” have no proper training and little knowledge. The only ones I know that are qualified to give parenting advice, that have proper training and are actually licensed therapists are Cyril Berman, Dr.T, Sarah Chana Radcliffe, Mindy Blumenthawl, and Chani Jurval. And even from those mentioned above, unfortunately not all of them give the best advice. Just because someone has a degree doesn’t necessarily mean they are experts and authorities in all areas of parenting. Please disregard the parenting experts advice you were given. Having extensive experience in this area both professionally and personally I assure you she is completely off base. There are extensive studies and research that scientifically prove withholding information and not being upfront with kids is what creates anxiety and negative associations within them. This is an indisputable fact, accepted by all licensed professionals that work in the field of anxiety as well as neuroscience of behavior and brain science. Not being honest with your DD in why she can’t watch TV (or turn off a light) for fear of her having negative association, is in fact what will cause her to have a negative association. Even without any knowledge on anxiety or brain development, think about it from a logical perspective. At what age will you tell your child that watching TV on shabbos is assur? I’m assuming you will say ”when she is at an age that she can logically understand it”. If you wait until then, that would mean she’s also at an age she will logically wonder why you never told her earlier. Why you allowed her to believe for 6/7 years that she could, but you just didn’t want her to at that time. Are you going to tell her you hid the fact that it’s asssur, because you believe being frum is terribly difficult and she couldn’t manage such a harsh reality? Do you realize you are going to give her the message you had no trust in her ability to deal with this “tremendous burden” of being frum at a young age? Not telling her the truth now is essentially telling her that the halachos are negative and she wasn’t old enough to manage it. That’s completely false. The younger tgey are when taught, the easier for child. I can list another 6/7 negative associations and beliefs your DD will be left with if you are not upfront and honest about not watching tv or turning on lights because it’s shabbos. It will not only harm her associations with shabbos, it will harm her trust in you and her self esteem.
From a practical perspective:
1)What happens if she is at a friends house and asks to watch tv on shabbos and she is told it’s not allowed on Shabbos and she responds that her parents let her!? Or a friend is at your house and she asks if they want to watch something and her friend is the one that informs her it’s not allowed on shabbos. How will she feel ? Being blindsided by her own parent will cause a long lasting negative effect on her. Telling her that you aren’t allowed to watch TV or turn on lights on shabbos, providing her with the proper information and education that all other children her age already know, won’t.
But most damaging of all, not telling her she can’t on shabbos will create a mental health disorder known as “cognitive dissonance “ which is caused by one’s experiences not aligning with one’s knowledge.
Being upfront, factual, and unapologetic about what can and can’t be done on shabbos is the way to ensure there are no negative feelings towards Halacha. The younger the better. Not being upfront and surprising them when they are older with the Halacha, is a recipe for disaster and will cause the very thing you’re trying to avoid. If I was raised to believe I can’t have a cheeseburger because my mother never had time to stop at McDonald’s (which would be the “not now” response) I would be waiting for the day I’m old enough to go myself. Being told years later it’s actually not kosher and I could never have it ,would be extremely difficult as my brain was already wired to believe I could. The fact is I have NEVER desired a cheeseburger EVER. My brain developed and was wired knowing I will never have a cheeseburger from the earliest age. Had my brain developed thinking another time and was wired to believe it could, just “not now” it would be a lifelong battle.
It takes 20-25yrs for the brain to fully develop but the first five years are the most crucial, essential forming years. The foundation of neural wiring is formed. Why would you want your child’s brain to develop and be wired to believe they can do things on shabbos that they can’t, and then expect them to change those beliefs once you have wired their brains to believe otherwise. It’s extremely difficult to rewire the neuropassages that have already formed in the first 5yrs. A child should know from the youngest age what is and is not allowed while the brain is still in its primary years of development. Truthfully most orthodox 4yr olds already have that neuro-wiring and are usually months away (if not yet) fully developed in not turning on a light or a TV on shabbos.
If they accidentally turn on a light then there’s no reason to tell them they shouldn’t have, because it’s too late and telling them they shouldn’t have often causes them to instinctively turn the light back off if they accidentally turned it on when they are older.
The only other reason she would possibly have a negative association of not being able to turn light on/off is if she is scared of the dark which is easily solved by having a nightlight, shabbos lamp, or leaving hall light on and her door open.

In terms of muktzah assuming she is not developmentally delayed, she is definitely old enough to differentiate between toys that make lights and noises and those that don’t and should be taught not to play with muktzah toys. The earlier these things are taught the easier it is. You don’t have to “tell her off” but you should be explaining to her that toys that make loud sounds/noises/lights are called muktzah and we don’t play with them on shabbos. Put away her muktzah toys with her before shabbos and have her take out toys designated for shabbos. She is not too young for this. These are basics that are imperative to be taught now at a young age. Not doing so now will have extremely negative consequences. These are not matters to consult with those that brand themselves as “parenting experts” these are matters of Halacha. There is a book called “Children in Halacha” you most likely would benefit from. Chapter one page 7 paragraph B states “once a child is old enough to understand that a particular action is forbidden, the parent is obligated to teach the child to refrain from the action.” “The Poskim do not define the exact age when this level is attained since it varies for each child, but it is generally reached by 4yrs of age”.
If your child is old enough to understand she can’t touch the air conditioner, and she can’t watch tv “now”. She is capable in understanding and must be taught she can’t watch tv, turn on a light, or play with muktzah on shabbos. These matters are something to ask a Rav about if you are unclear, not a parenting teacher.

amother

Seablue

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 6:03 pm

amother OP wrote:

She never asks to go in a car on shabbos and it’s a not a problem for her because she was raised from infancy knowing she doesn’t. The younger she is when she hears we don’t watch tv or turn on lights on shabbos the easier it will be for her.

mom24b

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 6:10 pm

amother OP wrote:

I disagree with this. This is a 4 year old, not a 10 year old. There are adults who have problems not using their phones on Shabbos. Telling a 4 year old "we don't watch TV on Shabbos in my opinion is like saying " we don't eat candy on Shabbos".

An adult who has difficulty not using a phone on shabbos was either not brought up frum or suffers from a mental health issue of addiction. Changing habits later in life (if one wasn’t frum) is extremely difficult and why you must tell a 4 yr old we don’t watch tv on shabbos now (and truthfully should have been taught much younger) the older she is the harder it becomes. Please have faith in your child’s abilities to cope, a 4yr old is very capable of dealing with the reality and not telling her the reality will make it harder for her later.

amother

Seablue

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 6:14 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well actually, these feelings come from the first time she asked for TV on Shabbos, I told her we don't watch on Shabbos... so she asked when Shabbos would be over so she can ask me again then.

That’s great! That means she accepted the fact that she couldn’t watch on shabbos! Wonderful! That’s the response you want! No tantrum , no screaming I hate shabbos. It was acceptance that’s awesome why would you stop telling her that when you weren’t even met with opposition?

amother

Gray

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 6:26 pm

I’m going anonymous bc I’ll be recognized otherwise by my sisters.

I’m an educator for a few decades for early childhood. Also a mother of Kah ten children who are past 4 years old who are humans and make chilul shabbos mistakes, as we mostly do.
Here’s how I’d suggest approaching it:
When it’s not on shabbos talk to her about the concept of melacha. Show her in the lammed Tess melochos book the pictures. Tell her about the building of the mishkan and how shabbos all activities related have to stop to honor shabbos. This can be fine as a story.

She is old enough to be familiar with the word melacha. Again, not on shabbos, figure out with her what are common melachos she does during the week. She’ll be excited to be so smart to know , based on what you showed her. You can guide her to figure out what those melachos might be. This is giving general, accurate knowledge and background in an age appropriate level. Then when it comes up you can gently remind her.

Another thought, is it possible she’s doing it to get a reaction? If that’s what you think the case is, then I’d say it once and move away so I don’t see and she doesn’t get the reaction.

I hope I was clear.

amother

Phlox

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 7:15 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Lol you write an entire *anonymous* megillah saying what to do and promising bad effects that will happen

And also say "ignore all self proclaimed parenting experts"

behappy2

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 7:34 pm

I would try to ignore as much as possible.

I would just say that Mommy doesn't turn on lights and when she is going to be big she also won't.

It's hard. She already has the habit of turning it on/off.

amother

Seablue

Thu, Oct 12 2023, 8:25 pm

amother Phlox wrote:

Lol you write an entire *anonymous* megillah saying what to do and promising bad effects that will happen

And also say "ignore all self proclaimed parenting experts"

Correct I said to either refer to the book “children in Halacha” or ask a Rav. These are matters of Halacha . That being said The Torah perspective and Halacha very often corroborate modern psychology and neuroscience. I wrote facts OP can easily Google to learn about if she wants. She can Google cognitive dissonance, brain development and any other fact I write. I then gave her things to think about. How will her daughter feel if she learns the facts from a friend , or is told differently when she’s older…. I gave OP things to think about so she can come to her own decision. I didn’t claim she has to listen to me either. The only time I say she is obligated is in regards to teach her daughter about muktzah as I was quoting from “children in Halacha” and that is the Halacha stated. I provided the chapter and location of where I quoted and again suggested if OP wants clarity she should ask a Rav. Nowhere do I suggest she follows my advice blindly. In fact I don’t encourage anyone to follow strangers or anyone’s advice blindly. I offered information, food for thought, and quotes from a Halacha Sefer. This enable OP to research, think about, and /or ask sheilas in the areas she wants and if she wants to disregard it all that’s also ok.

dena613

Fri, Oct 13 2023, 12:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

We always taught my child that she should turn a light of when she goes out of a room. Ever since she can reach, she turns on & off lights when entering & leaving a room. 2 years ago, I tried light covers- but she would just move them.

Any ideas?

Kol hakavod that she turns lights off when she leaves the room.
If we could have gone back in time, you would've also taught her not to do so on Shabbos.

There is no problem with telling her now (and she should know anyway because you don't turn them in and off).

Of course tape them or cover them with something she won't remove. Involveher in covering and tell her that we don't turn lights on and off on shabbos.

On shabbos, when she's Abt to leave a room--
"Chanie, remember, don't turn off the light!"
"Wow! I'm so proud of you and how you're keeping shabbos."

Personally, my kids know it's not allowed and my 4 yo don't turn on and off if covered, but they might occasionally slip up and turn on or off uncovered switches.

If they on occasion do turn on the light,
"Yossi, ooops! That was a mistake. We need to do teshuva. Say sorry to Hashem for turning on the light."

Nothing too intense.

mommyhood

Fri, Oct 13 2023, 3:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well actually, these feelings come from the first time she asked for TV on Shabbos, I told her we don't watch on Shabbos... so she asked when Shabbos would be over so she can ask me again then.

This sounds so normal to me. Doesn’t mean she dislikes Shabbos it just means she likes TV and she really gets the difference in the days.
I love Shabbos and Yom Tov and also find certain aspects hard and I’m always looking forward to turning my phone back on and take a proper shower.