What is a Godol? | Imamother

freidasima

Thu, Aug 14 2008, 2:47 am

On another thread the discussion turned to the question of daas torah or opinions voiced by Gedolim, Rabbonim, Rebbes etc. and whether they were right, or whether we even have the right to discuss whether they were right or not in those issues.

My general feeling is that there is a very big difference of opinion regarding the definition and limits (if they exist) of what a Godol (of the past few generations, I am not talking about Rishonim, Tanaim, Amoraim, and before) is between various Orthodox groups today.

So I am interested in hearing various opinions and would like to have a respectful discussion (no bashing please, just opinions) among the Imamothers and see what various groups think about this question. After giving your or your group's opinion and attitude (respectfully please), please state what group you are from.

Here are the questions:

1) How would you or your group define a Godol?

2) Does your group hold that every opinion that a Godol gives on any subject must BY DEFINITION ("daas torah") be followed?

3) Dour your group made a distinction between what a Gadol paskins regarding issues of halocho kifshuto - shabbos, kashrus, niddah, dinei mammon, nedorim etc. if he is a posek, versus statements about personal and public issues - politics, military, where to live or where not to live, etc.?

4) Are there issues that Gedolim have given a "daas torah" on in which you would not abide by such a daas torah? If so, in what types of issues?

5) If your group holds that a Godol is absolute in any daas torah issue, how do you relate to the fact that there can be another Godol whose opinion is diametrically opposed to the first Godol on a particular issue (in cases where we are not talking about your particular Rebbe, which of course you will follow as opposed to a different group's Rebbe.)?

I know that the questions seems complicated and I am trying to phrase them with respect to Torah, and to Gedolei HaTorah so please accept them in the spirit that they were written.

I'll post my opinion after we get some kind of discussion rolling, and in the hope that this thread will not be locked and deleted.

Again, I repeat, this is not meant to show any disrespect whatsoever to Torah, Gedolei Hatorah, Rabbonim, Rebbes etc.
It is only to see what various groups in Frum yiddishkeit see as the tafkid of such Gedolim today and how they related to the limits (if they exist at all) of their statements and whether every statement is seen and treated as a "daas torah".

Tzippora

Thu, Aug 14 2008, 7:27 am

Here's a start from my perspective. My background is heavily old-world litvish in terms of thought processes.

1- Godol... still never been sure that there IS a definition, but a Rav who is smart, intelligent, and knows how to talk to and address the issues of a wide variety of people while maintaining concern for the big picture of how frum society functions.

2- Certainly not.

3- Certainly. I have never seen anyone in my family ask advice from a posek on these types of matters and I can guarantee you that if they have received one, they treated it as advice, not a binding psak din.

4- Yes. Can't even think of one now... How to vote, for example. As this discussion gets rolling I'll think of some.

5- I don't hold this way, but the way I always viewed it is that you cannot square a circle. If two people hold diametrically, mutually exclusive views, they cannot BOTH be right. You do some thinking, you see which one makes sense to you, and you evaluate. How can I evaluate a godol's position? Because my little ol' brain is the best tool I've got, and I only have one body which cannot do two mutually exclusive things at the same time.

freidasima

Thu, Aug 14 2008, 2:33 pm

Thank you Motek for the link to that other thread.
Having read through it I am more confused than I was before I read it.
According to what you wrote there rabbonim and mechanchim and lamdanim can give bad advice on marriage and chinuch even if they are totally boki batorah, because they don't have the correct marital or educational training. (If I understood you correctly).
And there were posters there who said that even if a Godol gives advice that is bad it is ratzon hashem (like telling people to stay in Europe).
I follow, but that's a bit hard for me to swallow.

On the one hand, everything that happens, period, is ratzon Hashem. However we also have free will and don't believe in total determinism in Yiddishkeit - Hakol Tzufui Vehareshus netuna. That doesn't mean that things are preordained but that they are "seen" and we have free will.

Other posters there defending daas torah while stating that it was, or wasn't a new concept.
That's all great philosophy, and I appreciate reading it although as I wrote, the opinions there were a bit confusions to me or rather not what I expected.

Here I am asking for the practical answers.
What people consider to be a Godol, and whether they consider that they must follow a godol (not a mechanech, not a rosh yeshiva, etc.) on everything he says. And if so why and if not, why not?

Motek

Sun, Aug 17 2008, 10:41 am

freidasima wrote:

Here I am asking for the practical answers.
What people consider to be a Godol, and whether they consider that they must follow a godol (not a mechanech, not a rosh yeshiva, etc.) on everything he says. And if so why and if not, why not?

Those who say they must follow the gadol on every subject say the reason is because "he has daas Torah" and therefore, he can answer questions on all subjects, even on topics unrelated to the Torah he studies.

Those who say they do not have to follow every opinion stated by a gadol say so because they don't see any halachic basis for doing so.

but you knew that ...

freidasima

Sun, Aug 17 2008, 11:23 am

No Motek, it's not that simple there days.
The question begins with "what is a Godol"? And there was a reason I asked that.
Once upon a time Gedolim didn't give daas torah on certain subjects that today they constantly seem to talk about, even more than halocho.
And these subjects existed before.
That raises a lot of questions of why suddenly gedolim started making statements on various issues that had existed before, were problematic before, but suddenly now got a "daas torah".

In other words, of course I know what you wrote but I think it goes a lot deeper than that and that's why I posed the question and wanted to hear what different groups think. And still do.