Mashiach ben David vs. mashiach ben Yosef

Ema of 5

Sun, Apr 14 2024, 8:21 am

Who/what is Mashiach ben Yosef? What role does/will he play in our final redemption?

Ema of 5

Sun, Apr 14 2024, 4:23 pm

Bumping this up, maybe I’ll get some responses.

ewwpeas20

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 5:07 pm

Bumping

Ema of 5

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 6:29 pm

ewwpeas20 wrote:

Bumping

Guess it didn’t get any takers….

ra_mom

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 7:01 pm

As I understand it, when we speak of moshiach we mean moshiach ben dovid. Moshiach ben yosef will come first to prepare the world for moshiach ben dovid. But if we repent, we won't need to be prepared, to have war, and hashem will sent moshiach ben dovid straight away.

Ema of 5

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 7:10 pm

ra_mom wrote:

Does that mean that gog umagog, whatever that may entail, may not happen, and that Mashiach Ben Yosef might not come?

Thisisnotmyreal

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 7:44 pm

Moshiach Ben Yosef is not mentioned in Rambam. There's speculation that they are the same person.

dietcokeaddict

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 7:48 pm

There’s also the opinion that Moshiach Ben. Yosef will need to defeat Eisav, and Moshiach Ben Dovid will need to defeat Yishmael. According to many opinions (and the current reality), these two will be the world powers when Moshiach comes.

Goody2shoes

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 7:49 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Does that mean that gog umagog, whatever that may entail, may not happen, and that Mashiach Ben Yosef might not come?

Theres one opinion that he's supposed to die al kiddush Hashem. There are many that hold that he came already and has already been killed. I've heard different opinions of who it was.

Hope2

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 8:06 pm

Goody2shoes wrote:

Theres one opinion that he's supposed to die al kiddush Hashem. There are many that hold that he came already and has already been killed. I've heard different opinions of who it was.

According to the opinions who was it? I’m soo curious

Goody2shoes

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 8:13 pm

Hope2 wrote:

According to the opinions who was it? I’m soo curious

I've heard it said specifically about the Rebbe of Karlin, Reb Shlomo.

Ema of 5

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 8:15 pm

Goody2shoes wrote:

Theres one opinion that he's supposed to die al kiddush Hashem. There are many that hold that he came already and has already been killed. I've heard different opinions of who it was.

When no one responded, I googled and found something very interesting.

The principal and final function ascribed to Mashiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.5 Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel,6 and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied of old, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph."7

From this, it seems that edom encompasses more than just eisav. It seems that edom is all enemies of our, which includes but is not limited to yishmael.

The next part I found even more interesting.

The immediate results of this war11 will be disastrous: Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).12 His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.13

Maybe I’m the only one who didn’t know this, but it seems to me that the “second coming” is based on a Jewish concept?!?!

And lest anyone think this was from wackadoo website, it’s from chabad.org!! This is the full article.

https://www.chabad.org/library.....f.htm

Ema of 5

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 8:16 pm

Goody2shoes wrote:

Theres one opinion that he's supposed to die al kiddush Hashem. There are many that hold that he came already and has already been killed. I've heard different opinions of who it was.

So if that opinion is true, I guess we weren’t supposed to know who he was?

Motherhood

Mon, Apr 15 2024, 9:04 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

This is what we were taught up in school, and we’re not Chabad.
We learned that moshiach Ben Yosef will be killed and then moshiach Ben Dovid will come.
We also learned that milchemes gog u’magog will happen before moshiach comes, but not necessarily will moshiach come right after. We learned that many hold that ww2 was milchemes gog u’magog and now we’re waiting for moshiach.
Also, techias hameisim will not necessarily happen as soon as moshiach comes, but rather “בעת שיעלה רצון מאת הבורא יתברך שמו״” whenever hashem will want

jerusalem90

Tue, Apr 16 2024, 2:56 am

So could it be that Bar Cochva was Mashiach Ben Yosef, and WW2 was Gog Umagog, and now we are waiting for Mashiach Ben David?

salt

Tue, Apr 16 2024, 2:59 am

Famous hesped of Rav Kook for Herzl.

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....7%9D_(%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9D)#%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D

Rappel

Tue, Apr 16 2024, 5:16 am

He leads the wars. In the end, he dies. On a kabbalistic level he draws the attention of the forces of evil toward him and combats them for the sake of all creation