Sourdough challah vs non sourdough

amother

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:12 pm

Comptroller wrote:

No. That's the way it has always been done over the centuries, in countries where sourdough bread has always been available: dark sourdough bread during the week, and on shabbos white challah...

Now, the world went upside down, first by eating white bread during the week, and now, recently, by starting a sourdough challah fashion, which by the way was generally without rye flour...

what was generally without rye flour?

didnt you say dark rye sourdough during the week?

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:20 pm

amother OP wrote:

what was generally without rye flour?

didnt you say dark rye sourdough during the week?

I said the sourdough challot that are braided are generally not with rye flour. And I checked the receipe on "homegrown kosher" for sourdough challah out - it says "breadflour", which seems to mean high-gluten wheat flour.

Rye contains less gluten and therefore does not lend itself to braiding.

Hence: Dark rye whole grain sourdough loaves during the week, braided white yeast challah on shabbat.

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:25 pm

amother Chestnut wrote:

Do you also not eat tomatoes and oranges and bananas because no one in the olden days had those? I’m trying to understand.

I try to explain it slowly:

In the olden days, dark, whole grain, rye flour was the cheap flour.

White wheat flour used to be a luxury.

That's why the braided, white, wheat flour challot, made with yeast, were a luxury reserved for shabbos. The everyday bread used to be cheap sourdough, whole grain rye bread.

Get it?

So now, if you start baking the dark wholegrain sourdough bread for shabbos - you are doing things upside down.

Moreover: it makes sense, from a dietary perspective, to eat lots of whole grain bread during the week, and just once, as an exception, white flour challah on shabbat, as a special treat.

amother

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:28 pm

Comptroller wrote:

rye is cheap but is it healthier?

which white flour did they use?

wheat wasnt hybridised then so which type of sifted white flour did they use?

was it white rye?

amother

Mustard

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:37 pm

Comptroller wrote:

There was no yeast in the olden days

But olden days can mean a lot of things

amother

Mustard

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:37 pm

amother OP wrote:

rye is cheap but is it healthier?

which white flour did they use?

wheat wasnt hybridised then so which type of sifted white flour did they use?

was it white rye?

Wheat has been hybridized for many many generations

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

rye is cheap but is it healthier?

Yes. When people speak of the virtues of sourdough, they don't mean white wheat flour sourdough. They mean whole grain sourdough, and they mean rye.

Rye does not respond well to yeast and so rye bread is generally made with sourdough. I make sourdough bread with about 60% rye and 40% wheat, mostly whole grain, because the wheat gives it structure (with the gluten it contains), so that I can bake loaves without a mould.

Quote:

which white flour did they use?

Wheat
In the past, it was much more complicated to make white flour than whole grain flour. Plus with whole grain you discarded less, so you had a larger quantity of whole grain from a given amoutn of wheat grains. Plus whole grain is more satisfying, so you needed less to get your hungry mouths satisfied.

Later, a new type of mill was invented which made it easier to produce white flour. plus white flour has a longer shelf life, because it eliminates the elements that go bad, like the germs. Plus everyone wanted to eat the luxury bread, even during the week, in order to feel like rich people. So in some countries, specially in southern Europe, the whole grain flour almost disappeared, and sourdough got out of use.

However, in central and eastern Europe, sourdough bread, wholegrain bread, rye bread always remained a staple of the diet.

Quote:

was it white rye?

Rye is always rather dark

ray family

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:10 pm

I make sourdough loaves during the week- white, ww, spelt a mix basically whatever I’m in the mood for. For Shabbos I make an enriched sourdough braided challah. It’s important to me that Shabbos still look and feel like Shabbos with a braided loaf.
It is possible to make sourdough challah
I would not call the loaves of bread that most people are making challah. They’re not.
Just like if you put a loaf of rye bread on your table it wouldn’t make it challah. Yes , you can have lechem mishna from any type of bread, but don’t call it challah

amother

Mustard

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:44 pm

Comptroller wrote:

The ancient Egyptians used yeast to make bread. Apparently, yeast has been used 6000 years ago to make bread...

Where did you get that from? I mean, sourdough uses wild yeasts from the air, so yeast is always what makes bread rise, but there was no cultured rapid rise bakers yeast as we know it

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:13 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

Where did you get that from? I mean, sourdough uses wild yeasts from the air, so yeast is always what makes bread rise, but there was no cultured rapid rise bakers yeast as we know it

sourdough is sour because it contains lactobacillus. Yeast is something else, it's a fungus.
Sourdough starter is probably a mix of different organisms, including yeasts, but the main thing is the lactobacillus.
Maybe if you use wheat flour, there is more yeast, and with rye flour, there is more lactobacillus.
And yes, yeast occurs naturally in the air, so you can catch it by leaving your dough to ferment for some time...

amother

Bergamot

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:14 pm

Comptroller wrote:

My minhag is to eat sourdough rye whole grain bread during the week and challa made of white wheat flour with yeast on shabbat. For the yeast, it is generally necessary to add sugar, but I don't add so much sugar that the challah tastes sweet.

I don't understand this sourdough challah fashion.

I tried to make challah fom sourdough, it does not really work, sourdough does not really lend itself to braiding.

this said, when I have leftover sourdough starter, I might well put it in the challah dough, just like that, without really taking it into account, and the challah will not be worse for it.

Can you teach me how to make sourdough rye whole grain? Is it just as delicious as regular?

amother

Mustard

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:16 pm

Comptroller wrote:

both lactic acid producing bacteria and wild yeast are in sourdough starter

Comptroller

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:17 pm

lkwdgirl wrote:

Is it possible to have gluten free sourdough

Without gluten, you have nothing to hold your structure.

Rye has much less gluten than wheat or spelt, (3% for rye, 8% for wheat, 10% for spelt) but it is not completely gluten free.