Would you consider such a person frum?

TzenaRena

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 5:45 pm

shalhevet wrote:

So you are not asking if she's frum (what help are labels?), but if halachically her food is bishul akum? Not an emotional/ semantic answer, but a halachic one.

So the answer is - ask your LOR.

(AFAIK, someone's food is only considered bishul akum if they are mechalel Shabbos in public, so things like kashrus/ TH are irrelevant.)

Our Rav told me when I was asking about a cook for my dds' school or camp, that the criteria was (besides shmiras Shabbos) observance of Cholov Yisrael, Pas Yisrael in their personal life. I wasn't asking if the din was Bishul Akum, just what we should look for when hiring (or keeping) the cook. But obviously Kashrus does figure - not irrelevant.

costanza

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:25 pm

Seraph wrote:

About what you consider frum, and all.
My husband considers only chareidi people "frum" as he thinks frum means chareidi (meaning he still considers other people religious, but not with the title "frum"), but my definition of frum is a little more broad, including all people shomrei mitzvos. so I wasnt sure if describing this person I'd say "she's a frum girl", because is she frum? can someone not ashamed about doing aveiros be considered frum?

Seraph, I've read with great interest this entire thread and I have to say that, while your original question is telling, your responses are even more so. What you fail to understand, and what was communicated in so many of the posts, is (perhaps because of your age which I am assuming is young - what early 20's?) that there is more to life and inter-personal relationships than the strict letter of the law. Yes, Torah and Mitzvot observance is of the utmost importance, but we are talking about situations involving complicated human emotions - not the height of a sukkah wall that either is or isn't kosher. Sometimes it is necessary to factor people's feelings into these decisions and you need to realize that no situation like this can easily be defined in black and white.

What really bothered me was the way your husband (and you?) define "frum". The idea that you need to think about this so much is unnecessary. While the true judgements are left to Hashem, people instinctively assess someone based on so many factors - what they look like, where they grew up, who their parents were, their life experiences, what their beliefs are etc., etc. In the end it is a sense of trust you either have or you don't. Lables created by every little faction of Jews as to what is and is not frum is devisive - I don't see a positive aspect to doing it.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 28 2008, 3:10 am

What a shame that she's living with her boyfriend... I know a man who's looking for a woman with exactly the level of observance you describe, I would have suggested a shidduch... If you know anyone else similar to her religiously between around age 45 and 60... (OK I'll shut up about that and go to the shidduch thread).

I don't think a question like this can be answered by those of us on imamother or even by your rabbi, since what you're describing is so borderline that in order to know whether or not to trust kashrut you really have to know the person. I have one friend who keeps laws of Shabbat to the best of her knowledge but ignores other laws (tzniut, TH, davening) and I would never trust her in my kitchen. Even if she's getting a cup of water I keep an eye on her, because she somehow manages to mix up everything no matter how easy it would be not to. She just doesn't pay attention to those things. It has nothing to do with belief or observance, as far as I can tell, that's just how she is. On the other hand, I can think of someone else who's kashrut I trust who will do things like you describe, ex. turn off appliances after shkia. Because I know him, I know that even though he'll sometimes do something wrong if it would be highly inconvenient not to, he wouldn't put others in that situation no matter how inconvenient it would be for him. It's all a question of personality and middot.

In your case I would suggest going by gut feeling (unless your rav feels he can give you a definitive psak). Somewhere inside I'm guessing you already know whether or not you feel she can be trusted. If your instinct says no, there's probably a good reason, even if technically you're allowed to trust her.

And to answer the original question--I wouldn't call her frum. My personal, based on nothing but feelings definition of frum is someone who keeps shabbat and kashrut and tries to keep all of the laws. Someone wouldn't necessarily be ruled out for going to the beach on shabbat or not dressing tznua if they know it's wrong and are working on it (no matter how slowly), but for seeing no problem with those things, they would be ruled out, and it sounds like the woman you're talking about doesn't see her live-in boyfriend as problematic. OTOH, I would define anyone as orthodox (or at least "orthoprax" depending on belief) just for keeping shabbat and kashrut (TH is assumed), so I would consider her orthodox.

Inspired

Tue, Oct 28 2008, 7:36 am

Seraph wrote:

Shayna and greenfire, while being a mentch and ve'ahavta lereacha kamocha are important, when it comes down to a) keep kashrus and offend someone b) eat something not kosher as to not offend someone, I'd go with choice A. Of course, if you can choose choice c)keep kashrus and dont offend anyone, thats even better, but sometimes its not possible.

It depends whether its "offending" or "embarrassing" and whether its an actually issur, a personal chumra or a minhag and how you handle it.

Inspired

Tue, Oct 28 2008, 7:40 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

seraph, that is not true at all. first of all, it is known that to embarrass someone is just as bad as killing them.

I want to give you an example of this, how what you wrote is not the case. we have chiloni relatives here in israel. they know nothing about kashrut. one time we went over there and my mother told them that we can not eat in their house because they dont keep the halachot like we do and they were a bit put off. fair enough. we understood that they would be, but my mother told them that they would bring plastic wear and stuff from a bakery nearby and all was ok. they thought that we could never eat in their home, but it was that we could not eat from their dishes, etc. it helps to be a mentch and in our case, my mother explained the reasonings behind what she said and all was ok. being a mentsch is a big deal in life. it gets one much farther than being nasty or doing the absolutely correct thing all of the time.

Have a cold drink in a glass- then they understand its technical stuff not that there house has cooties.

Akeres Habayis

Tue, Oct 28 2008, 2:08 pm

Seraph wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

I missed the part about the problems of having her over yoru house??

I thought, misunderstood, that she was saying "well then if she cooks by your house with your ingredients, problem solved."

It is. If she's cooking at your house with your pots and your ingredients, you turn on the stove and the oven and then problem solved.

However I was referring that time to inviting her over to your house for a meal you cooked.

right, thats not a problem. however, I wasnt asking how to solve such a problem. I was asking if you'd consider such a person frum, with all it entails.

seraph,I think u want us to judge someone where we dont feel comfortable judging anyone.
if its about kashrut,u asked a rav,so that's it.but if u want us(who are nothing and have our own issues)to say she isn't frum "enough"makes us uncomfortable

I believe when people spend time judging others its because they have their own issues and its easier to focus on others than ourselves.so with that thought I can't say if she is frum or not,for me to judge her harshly means Hashem might judge me just as harsh CVS.
also
as someone already said its between her and Hashem.

Crayon210

Tue, Oct 28 2008, 6:09 pm

Inspired wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

Have a cold drink in a glass- then they understand its technical stuff not that there house has cooties.

Not everyone would hold that this is okay.

Seraph

Wed, Oct 29 2008, 5:38 am

Oysh, why does everyone take this so personally and think I'm juding someone. Ever happened that you speak to someone and say "oh, I met this frum lady" or "I met this non frum lady" or whatever. you just use the words frum or not frum to describe someone. would someone who says she live with her boyfreind be described by you as a frum woman. Thats all. Not judging on her or her relationship with god or whatever. Simple question, really...

Marion

Wed, Oct 29 2008, 5:52 am

Seraph wrote:

Actually, generally I don't use "frum" as an adjective when describing someone. I find it's way, way, way too subjective. And yes, judgemental. Because really, if she says she's frum, who am I to decide otherwise? And if she thinks she is and I think she's not, why should I embarrass her to others?

catonmylap

Wed, Oct 29 2008, 6:16 am

Seraph wrote:

I don't usually say that either.

When you say that though, I picture a woman in a sheitel, or at least a haircovering and long skirt. It is descriptive I think. I have more issues with saying not frum. I would prefer you said something more descriptive because it could be someone I might consider frum and you don't or someone completely secular or something in-between. It also sounds "negative" to me.