To be "Aish'd" | Imamother

Motek

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 8:58 am

sarahd wrote:

Do you agree with the author's premise?

The premise being that introductory outreach programs aren't perfect?

Yes.

Rather than criticize the author, I think it would be smart if outreach groups took negative feedback and fine-tuned their programs to meet people's needs and maximize their success in reaching people. Because the amount of people who actually commit to Shabbos and kashrus is very small.

The author made some important points. Aish's response (which is on their website) doesn't address them.

good point #1 - not everybody's grandparents lived in Eastern European shtetlach and were pious.

good point #2 - some people will be turned off if they feel they are being put on a guilt trip

good point #3 - some people will be turned off if the message is that a secular life is shallow, greedy, immoral when they and their families and friends live meaningful, moral lives

good point #4 - presenting the Orthodox way of life as utopia is dangerous and stupid

good point #5 - if the lecturers are FFB, participants might walk away thinking: what do they know about secular life? about my life?

good point #6 - intellectual proofs are okay but if talks do not address emotional needs, many people will go with emotions rather than what was proven to be true. Ex. if I want a hug from my boyfriend now, explanations about why that's not in my longterm best interest are not that helpful

good point #7 - inspirational is ephemeral, what follow-up is provided?

good point #8 - what tools are people given to maintain a frum lifestyle when they go back home?

chavamom

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 9:24 am

Motek wrote:

good point #2 - some people will be turned off if they feel they are being put on a guilt trip

Is it being presented as a guilt trip or is that what some individuals are taking away b/c of internal conflict?

Quote:

good point #5 - if the lecturers are FFB, participants might walk away thinking: what do they know about secular life? about my life?

Funny part being that most Aish lecturers are NOT FFB, but somehow that got missed the author. They generally aren't hiding that either.

Quote:

good point #6 - intellectual proofs are okay but if talks do not address emotional needs, many people will go with emotions rather than what was proven to be true. Ex. if I want a hug from my boyfriend now, explanations about why that's not in my longterm best interest are not that helpful

They seemed to explain that but she thought it was stupid.

Quote:

good point #7 - inspirational is ephemeral, what follow-up is provided?

Plenty available, but you can't MAKE anyone partake. You can lead a horse to water.....

Quote:

good point #8 - what tools are people given to maintain a frum lifestyle when they go back home?

See response to good point #7

tzipp

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 11:50 am

Wow, motek, I was thinking a lot of what you said, and couldn't believe that no one else was seeing it that way.

I want to add a few points:

-I wouldn't look at this in terms Aish having a problem, each group has things that can be improved and lot of this applies to other groups.

-The author was not bashing, as much as describing her personal experience and why she thinks things can be done differently. If her tone is nagative, it is because her experience was, she is just being honest. and at the end she said she was going back to Israel but still wearing jeans- I take that to mean that she is open to yiddishkiet just at her own pace. Who am I to judge?

- The "cult like" atmosphere- well I can't fault aish for making things fun, BUT it is true that cults missionary groups do often operate like that- retreats, camps- giving the whole "fun" or "emotional" experience, don't allow for much outside contact, the group dynamic- everyone is doing the same thing, it doen't much encourage individual critical thinking. And it is hard to maintain after. (Of course with a real cult there are added aspects such as mind control/ brainwashing, guilt tactics, discouraging contact with family members and other people outside the cult, preying on people who are vulnerable to start with, that keep lots of people going for a long time.)

-The biggest problem that I saw was that questions were not being adressed. the same thing happened to a friend of mine who was in a frum seminary! The teacher got mad and called her a name when she continued to ask certain questions. (And they were perfectly legitimate questions too) Judiasm is supposed to a a religion that encourages thinking, and the answers are there, so why should any topic be taboo?

-Many people are not ready to quickly change their lives, and frankly may never be, but every extra mitzva is valueble. Expecting all people to transform quickly is disrespectful to each persons unique challenges, all you can do is provide guidance and allow people to evaluate for themselves, and take steps they are ready for.

- What motek said I will repeat- presenting frum life as utopian is problematic for many reasons.

chavamom

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 1:37 pm

tzipp wrote:

-The biggest problem that I saw was that questions were not being adressed. the same thing happened to a friend of mine who was in a frum seminary! The teacher got mad and called her a name when she continued to ask certain questions. (And they were perfectly legitimate questions too) Judiasm is supposed to a a religion that encourages thinking, and the answers are there, so why should any topic be taboo?

Where did the author state that was a problem? And let me tell you, that is not Aish. They are all about asking questions until you get the right answers - in fact, pushing the agenda of you are mechuyav to ask questions until you work out your issues.

chavamom

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 1:46 pm

Quote:

But the teachings are superficial and the Orthodox world they present bears not a trace of dissatisfaction: Never did I ever hear a speaker or trip leader discuss any problems within the Orthodox world. Apparently, as long as they follow proper Halacha, everybody is happy and fulfilled, with neither depression nor repression, money nor domestic problems.

And I do have to wonder how she would like this "presented". "Hey kids, we have a wonderful, meaningful lifestyle, but tuition is a killer!" Really, is that appropriate for an introductory program trying to turn kids onto Judaism?

I know from having worked (years ago) for Discovery Seminars, that the kids always jumped on "frum people aren't perfect". "I know someone who wears a kippa and is miserable and cheats on his wife!" and so on. There was no sweeping it under the rug. No one is claiming torah solves all your problems, just that it is a guidebook for living a meaningful, spiritual life.

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 3:38 pm

Motek wrote:

good point #3 - some people will be turned off if the message is that a secular life is shallow, greedy, immoral when they and their families and friends live meaningful, moral lives

this is one of the things that bugs me about jewish fiction novels...they often portray the secular as course, unrefined etc..I keep thinking that if I were secular and would read one of those books I'd be put off in an instant.

tzipp

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 4:43 pm

Chavamom, this is what I was refering to:

"A fellow participant on my trip was ignored by advisers when she remarked that for some Sephardim, the only halachic requirement was to be more modest than one's neighbors, and that the stringent laws that guide current frum fashion (good-bye collarbones, elbows and knees) were unnecessary. Outright dismissal of alternative views may drive sales of skirt manufacturers, but it is not beneficial to learning about the history of Judaism."

I believe you that that is unusual, but this was this person's experience. Maybe it was just one teacher, I don't know...

Motek

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 5:37 pm

chavamom wrote:

No one is claiming torah solves all your problems, just that it is a guidebook for living a meaningful, spiritual life.

Oy, I hope that's not the way it's explained (I need a pained look emoticon).

chavamom wrote:

I'm sure that we posters can come up with a way of presenting it. I don't think it has to be, "And we have our share of molestors, thieves and murderers."

Chani

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 8:16 pm

Personally, I think Motek raises some good points - every institution has what to learn, and although I am a big fan of Aish and Ohr Somayach, they (and this applies to any kiruv organization - Chabad, Gateways, Discovery, etc) aren't perfect. I especially think that the follow up afterwards is critical, and it DOESN'T always happen. Even FFB seminary girls commonly find a let down when they come back to the states after being in EY, and they have a community, family, and a lifetime of frumkeit behind them. For somebody who comes back to the US, who may be living with their parents, or otherwise financially dependent, who has no frum friends outside of EY, well, I can see why it would be difficult.

And I do think that there's a place for acknowledgment of the fact that there are aspects of frum life that are less than perfect - tuition, the discrimination that might be faced even a generation later in shidduchim, etc. What we have is valuable, even with its imperfections (and the imperfections are in us, not in the Torah itself, C''V!). We are setting people up for failure and disillusionment later, if we aren't open about the difficulties as well as the advantages and joy in being frum. We tell geirim about the problems they may face - don't you think BT's (or those on the way to becoming BT) are also capable of hearing the truth? I"m not suggesting it be done on the first week, but there is a danger in being Pollyanna-ish about the frum velt.

Hopefully at some point the person is making a connection with a particular rav or mentor who is indeed frank and open about the good and the bad, but that doesn't ALWAYS happen.

Chani

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 9:21 am

Quote:

Chani wrote:
We tell geirim about the problems they may face - don't you think BT's (or those on the way to becoming BT) are also capable of hearing the truth?

big difference is that if a potential ger decides he's not interested in converting, that's fine

whereas with a Jew, he is obligated in Torah and mitzvos and you don't want to turn them away

I think there's a much bigger risk of somebody turning away if they feel that they were led on and fed an unrealistic picture of frum life and are later disillusioned, than if they were told the truth up front. There are ways of giving it over so that it is honest and yet palatable.

orchidmom

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 9:23 am

To be aish'd is a topic that I have a lot of dicussions about with people from "the other" side.
People who have kids or whos friends have kids who have been aish'd.

I think what they feel is that the children sometimes go too far too fast and don't accept their families for who they are. Often putting their families under a lot of preassure to fit their new lifestyle.

Sometimes they are taught a lot of stuff, but are not taught how to deal with their families once they have become more frum. A lot of parents feel that their children have lost respect for them.

Aish is a fab program and do a lot of amazing work but sometimes we have to see things from the other persons perspective.