Malachim (group within Lubavitch)

OOTBubby

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 9:59 am

Take a look at this link:
www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Malachim-(Chassidus)

What is says is what I remember, one from reading a chapter in a book about the Malach (I believe the book was Old Willamsburg by Gershon Kranzler but I am out of town and cannot check my library) and two from my daughter whose friend married a decendant of the Malochim.

My understand is that today most of their (and many of the originals started out as Torah V'Daas boys) descendants have married into mainstream groups of chassidus (mostly Satmar) and there isn't much of a definitive group of "Malochim" any more.

NOTE: I could not get the link to work right because of the parenthese in the name. You'll need to copy and paste the whole line to get it to work.

Last edited by OOTBubby on Thu, Jan 22 2009, 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total

Racheli

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 10:04 am

So can we conclude at least that one cannot be a member of the Malachim and be Lubavitch? But that one could be a descendant of the original Malachim, retain some fragments of Malachim customs (maybe dressing in a more Satmar style?) but identify today as Lubavitch and send children to Lubavitch schools, live in Crown Heights, etc?

dainty diva

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 10:07 am

As far as I've known some "malachim" families,, the women don't wear sheitlech, only tichlech and most of them, if not all, are indeed satmar today, but their children do wear shaitlech. I was told in my younger years that their rebbe was called a malach because of his mesiros nefesh with cassidus and yidishkeit in Williamsburg pre-ww2, rendering him a "malach". His chassidim were able to remain old-European jews and not affected by secular-america, by adhering to him and following his leads, hence the term, "malachim".

chocolate moose

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 11:07 am

yet wrote:

2) chocolate moose Posted: Today at 7:56 pm wrote :They are descended from one of the Tzemach Tzedek's sons or grandchildren. Zirkind is from them as well.

One of the Malachim's first Rebbes was the son/grandson of the Tzemach Tzedek, but the Zirkinds are not descended from the Tzemach Tzedek nor from the Malachim. The Zirkinds just happened to daven in the Malachim Shul when they lived in Williamsburg before the War. The Zirkinds are NOT Malachim NOR are they descended from the Malachim![/color]

That may be, but their family keeps those minhagim.

gryp

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 11:10 am

Racheli wrote:

So can we conclude at least that one cannot be a member of the Malachim and be Lubavitch?

Right.
Let's just say that Malachim aren't very Lubavitch-friendly.

Quote:

But that one could be a descendant of the original Malachim, retain some fragments of Malachim customs (maybe dressing in a more Satmar style?) but identify today as Lubavitch and send children to Lubavitch schools, live in Crown Heights, etc?

The older customs the Malachim go by would be Lubavitch-style. They've adopted mostly everything Satmar. I don't know everyone in town but someone here dressing like Satmar wouldn't be inconspicuous. And I haven't noticed any except for the families everyone knows who dress differently, keeping on the same garb as the Chassidus they're originally from. But those are not Malachim, something else.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 11:17 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Oops I didn't see all year.

I do know one family that is almost like that. But they are health nuts.

I once read an article in nshei about someone who had just passed away. praising him, it mentioned that he never ate anything out of his house. (although he probably used manufactured goods) All I could think is that is no great hardship for most men to have that chumra, it is much much harder on their wives.

dillie

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 11:52 am

Raisin wrote:

gryp

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 11:52 am

I doubt they're much Chabad anymore. Just because they learn some Tanya and do some Chabad customs, doesn't make them Chabad. Do they learn the Maamorim of the Alter Rebbe, Mitteler Rebbe, TzTz, and Maharash? Something tells me not. They haven't had a Rebbe to expand Divrei Chassidus for them. I highly doubt they have their own school in Williamsburg- someone can correct me if I'm wrong. They looked up to the Satmar Rebbe. They do not have the same Ahavas Yisroel principles that we have, even though it comes from Tanya.
Yes, they came from the same source we did, but they no longer seem to be on the Chabad track.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think I am.

Racheli

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 12:13 pm

So this Zirkind family and other families like them picked up some Malachim minhagim from davening at that shul and have continued some of those minhagim to this day, but they are "regular" (for want of a better word) Lubavitchers? What do they do that's not a standard Lub. custom?

And I agree re not eating processed foods all year--that seems very hard on whoever is preparing the food. But I don't think (but I could be wrong) that that's something Satmar families do. I though Satmar families ate Satmar-supervised or approved processed foods the same way any chassidus eats processed foods that their rabbeim consider appropriately prepared and supervised.

gryp

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 12:24 pm

Quote:

I don't feel comfortable talking about individuals on a public forum, especially as I'm not their spokesman.
But I don't think these people would like to be associated with Malachim. As I said, Malachim are not very friendly towards Lubavitch, at least in the past they have shown that.

bandcm

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 12:36 pm

I also dont know any particular family mentioned.
But its not so hard to assume that there was a family that was Satmar, Belz, Litvish, Malachim, etc. and then became Lubavitch, and kept some of the Levush and minhagim. Many families exist in Lubavitch today like that.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 1:06 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

at first I thought we were talking about R' Avraham the Malach, child of the mezeritcher maggid(?)

I thought that too for a second. Until I saw that he taught the F. Rebbe, then I was really confused.

Didn't see this thread. R. Avraham's full name was R/ Avraham Dov(Ber) Levin. or Levine. There is a Lubavitcher family which was originally Malachim, became Lubavitch, and one son has this name.

R. A"D Levin, was originally one of the "chozrim", and a gifted teacher, and brilliant scholar.
I understood that because of something he said, which is not specified what, maybe in some way against the Frierdiker Rebbe , there was some "kepeidah" from the Rebbe RaShab, it does not seem that he asked mechilah, but instead separated from Lubavitch, and left to America. To the average Yid, in America of those days, a chossid who presented such a "tziyur" ie, spiritual kind of person, with full beard, chassidishe garb, and so learned was seen as a veritable malach, hence the name, and the following he acquired.

I don't see how he could have been hired as a private teacher before the Nesius of the Rebbe Rashab, during the Nesius of the Rebbe MaHaRaSH. The Frierdiker Rebbe was only two, at the time of the histalkus of the Rebbe Maharash. However, it was ten years before the Rebbe RaShab accepted the Nesius. So maybe during that tekufah.

chocolate moose

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 1:48 pm

GR wrote:

If I understand what you're trying to say, you're confusing Chabad with Lubavitch. Chabad = Chochma bina daas.

gryp

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 1:50 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

GR wrote:

If I understand what you're trying to say, you're confusing Chabad with Lubavitch. Chabad = Chochma bina daas.

I think I explained pretty clearly why they're most probably not Chabad anymore.

bbmom

Thu, Jan 22 2009, 5:45 pm

I don't really feel comfortable talking about a specific family here but just to clarify - the family themselves differ in opinion as to the source of their minhagim/levush. From what I understand one brother (and all his children and grandchildren) keep the levush and the other one (and all his children and grandchildren) do not - I have been told by members of both families that the reasons for the [different] is not clear.