Unethical comment from doctor.

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amother

Sat, Apr 29 2023, 11:24 pm

amother Banana wrote:

Agree that he should have ideally done this but I still don't think what he did is wrong.

You don’t think pushing your own religious agenda on your patient is wrong?

amother

Cinnamon

Sat, Apr 29 2023, 11:59 pm

I didn’t catch if you already did the testing or not. There are organizations that may help with the cost. I think jscreen sometimes provides free or low cost testing. Maybe try them?
In terms of the doctor I’m sorry you had that experience. It sounds very upsetting and unsupportive. I’m sure a lot went into the decision and questions it was the last thing you needed. I hope you are getting support for yourself as this is a difficult process. Sending hugs and good thoughts your way, and may only good news come your way!

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:06 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

And there we go. Advocating for doctors to lose their license for giving the BC against their better judgment but also asking the woman to please get a heter.
I don't agree with a doctor begging their patient to get a heter, but to want them to lose their license is beyond the pale.

Agree! You report a dr or get them to lose their license if they are completely inappropriate. Not because they were kind enough to let you know that you may need a heter or there are halachic ramifications to a specific test . I think it's actually kind of a dr to notify you of these things just incase you don't know. You report a dr if he harasses you , s-xually abuses you. Not if he mentions a certain exam or test may not be halachically ok . I'm appalled to think a dr can lose his license by trying to educate their patient. You don't like a drs bed side manner ? Leave and find a new doctor. How can you as a frum jew think reporting a dr and making him lose his license over a comment like that can be ok ?!

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:08 am

amother OP wrote:

You don’t think pushing your own religious agenda on your patient is wrong?

He wasn't pushing any agenda. He didn't say he refuses to do the test. Let's relax. Even if he did push some religious agenda? Big deal. Find a different dr . It's not a reason to make someone lose their license and livelihood . I would think most ppl would appreciate a dr telling them that a test may not be halachically permissible and they should ask their rabbi for clarification.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:09 am

amother Burgundy wrote:

I agree with not reporting him but to be clear he didn’t mention it kindly. Far from it.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:10 am

amother Burgundy wrote:

I never said I’m gonna report him or make him lose his license. Another poster suggested that.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:11 am

amother Cinnamon wrote:

Thank you. I appreciate you.

amother

Olive

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:13 am

amother IndianRed wrote:

This
FYI- I believe if you carry the braca gene there is a 20% chance of getting cancer
DH has metastatic breast cancer
His mom had breast cancer
His dad had colon cancer
All his uncles and aunts on both sides had some type of cancer
His grandmother had breast cancer
Guess what
NO GENETIC COMPONENT
He’s been tested 3 x already
No Brca 1
No Brca 2
No ——- there’s a 3rd one I forget the name
Absolutely nothing on the gardent360

Guardant360 is a test of tumor cells. This is not the way to test for hereditary breast cancer. See a genetic counselor to get the right test.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:16 am

Crookshanks wrote:

So inappropriate.
And I would love to know what the *actual* halachos of mesirah are, because our community is way too trigger happy with the term, and the general concept of keeping evil things done within the frum community hidden.

Keeping evil things hidden within the community!!! Let's relax with the drama here . The Dr didn't do anything evil by telling her there may be halachic ramifications and she should speak to a Dayan. Let's relax and not equate what her Dr said to abusers . Seriously... not sure why anyone would want to become a dr if people are so sensitive and get all dramatic because of something a dr said to them.

amother

Olive

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:18 am

Librarian wrote:

I just checked - Dor Yeshurim does test for the condition it's called Fanconi Anemia. That's a relief to me. So if you went through Dor Yeshurim before you got married it would seem to me you don't have this to worry about.

There are many genes for Fanconi Anemia. Dor Yeshorim doesn't test for BRCA2.

amother

Olive

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:27 am

amother Yolk wrote:

I've been trying to pinpoint what bothered me about this, and I think it is the point that the OP is so vague about what is involved. She obviously has access to the internet, since she is here, so I would have expected her to do some personal research after the appointment with the genetic counselor.

She is right that when both parents are carriers for the same BRCA mutation there is a 25% risk of each baby conceived having Fanconi's Anaemia. That is not the same as a 25% risk of each child born having it. The vast majority of these foetuses die within the early weeks of pregnancy. (Not that repeated miscarriages are a desirable outcome, either.) The actual statistics are around 1 in 130,000 live births. This is from all mutations causing it, not just the BRCA genes.

Approximately 1 in 40 askenazi Jews carry a BRCA mutation. If the OP's husband is a carrier, there is likely to be some family history. She didn't say anything about that, so we don't know if there is or not, but without family history the risk is much lower.

Fanconi's Anaemia does carry a high risk of leukemia, but the main problem is the failure of the bone marrow to produce an adequate supply of all types of blood cells, obviously leading to multiple other issues.

All of this information can be found in a few minutes on Google. If her husband went to the doctor with the same information that she presented above, it could be that the doctor wondered how much they had really looked into it. Since it is rare enough fir their insurance not to cover it, it's a very large outlay for minimal risk, and he may well have wanted to be sure they had done adequate research before deciding to proceed.

Your quick Google search led you to some incorrect conclusions.

amother

Olive

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 12:49 am

As a side point, there's no reason in 2023 that anyone in the U.S. needs to pay thousands of dollars for this test. It can be ordered for $250 for someone with no insurance coverage and it's usually less than that.

Ruchi

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 1:13 am

If there were halachic ramifications which I hadn't considered, I'd actually be very grateful to the doctor for making me aware. (even if I feel that he was overstepping boundaries)
At the end of the day, don't we all want to do what's halachicially correct?
If someone wants to פייפ אן halachic concerns, I can see them badly resenting the Dr for saying this.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 1:30 am

I was young and dumb when we did some genetic testing on my family members, in my opinion for something insignificant. I wish I had asked a shailah about it. I have no idea if I would have been told to go ahead with it or not. I would just be more comfortable knowing I had daas Torah for it. I really didn't think/know I needed to ask, so I would have appreciated it if someone pointed that out to me.

amother

Dimgray

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:07 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

It is an abuse of power. The role of a Dr is to provide medical care not religious advice

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 8:01 am

amother Dimgray wrote:

It is an abuse of power. The role of a Dr is to provide medical care not religious advice

Agreed

Ruchi

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 8:27 am

"Some decisions are between you and Hashem."

Between you and Hashem means that you take appropriate halachic direction.

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 8:56 am

amother OP wrote:

Hi. Recently tested positive for the BRCA gene. After discussing the situation with a genetic counselor my husband and I came to the conclusion that he should get tested as well. Although there’s a very small chance for my husband to test positive, if he does then with every baby we have there’s a 25% chance of the baby being born with severe health complications. I’m not sure the medical term but some kind of leukemia is one of the many issues the baby can have. Bottom line, my husband went to the doctor today to get the bloodwork, and he calls me from the doctors office that the doctor wants to talk to me. I said ok. Doctor proceeds to ask me if I asked a Dayan or lor permission to do the testing. According to him if I find out my husband is positive and then proceed to do ivf or decide not to have more kids it’s problematic. Additionally he said why the need to live an anxious life not knowing if you might get cancer or not. I was so so mad. I wanted to scream that it’s none of his business but instead I politely told him that this is between my husband and I and Hashem . He was taken aback as he thought a Frum women from kj would listen to him. He also told me it’ll cost $2000 because insurance wouldn’t approve his testing. Although we do not have from where to take the money we will somehow have to come up with it because its extremely important for me to be in the know. I’m fuming mad at him. I think it’s completely inappropriate for a doctor to say something like ask a Dayan. Why can he just do his job that he’s getting paid for? It irks me. I hate when ppl tell me what to do. Some decisions are between you and Hashem.
Rant over.
Am I being unreasonable?

I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole thread.
I was surprised your husband would be tested without the same medical history you must have had, but then the counselor recommendation registered.
Maybe, maybe I could have seen the doctor saying something like, there's a difference in opinions, why should the husband be tested too. Maybe. Because I'm not familiar with all the science, and open to the possibility that MAYBE on this there's a machlokes.
But there's NO machlokes that if one has a medical history one should be vigilant. Whether it's getting the genetic testing or at the very least getting earlier and more regular mammograms, etc. The bolded is very, very disconcerting, especially in light of an article in the most recent Family First.

amother

Steelblue

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 8:59 am

amother Olive wrote:

Please teach us primitive neanderthals how to order a test for $250.

arn

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 9:18 am

https://www.jscreen.org/geneti.....vice/

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