No socks? Is it a new trend

amother

Daphne

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:12 pm

Perly1 wrote:

That's not how I learnt it. Otherwise we could all decide not to wear tights and that would be that. It's how modest non-Jews in the country where you live dress.

I'm sorry, but what you learned is incorrect is. And there is not such thing as minhag hamakom of a whole country.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:21 pm

Perly1 wrote:

That's not how I learnt it. Otherwise we could all decide not to wear tights and that would be that. It's how modest non-Jews in the country where you live dress.

How does that even work, when countries are so diverse and have different areas where people live? The refined people in Sydney might noght dressed the same way as the refined people in Melbourne. The refined people in London might not dress the same way as the refined people in Manchester. The refined people in Tzfat might not dress the same way as the refined people in Meah Shearim.
A makom is a place, and it refers to the place where you are, meaning your community. It can’t work any other way.

Last edited by Ema of 5 on Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

SuperWify

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:24 pm

Perly1 wrote:

It's the level of minhag hamokom to wear tights. Basically in your country whatever modest, elegant people would wear becomes a chiyuv for us to wear.

For example in the UK the Queen wouldn't be seen without tights. Or in Afghanistan (I wouldn't recommend a visit LOL

) the chiyuv for a Jewish lady would be to wear a burka.

In a hot African country where no-one wears tights then I don't think there's an obligation to.

Basically the Jewish woman should be seen to be modest.

This is absolutely not what Minhag HaMakom is. It’s more about what the frum women in the community take upon themselves. Nothing to do with the queen or we’d all be wearing open necks.

Read Reclaiming Dignity.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:37 pm

From Yeshiva.co (the Beit-El Yeshiva) website

Question
Does the law of Minhag Hamakom still exist in our days? ie. does one in yerushalayim still HAVE to wear stockings in following the minhag etc?
I heard that we don’t follow minhag hamakom anymore because there are so many different types of people in one area that its hard to apply it.
Answer
The concept of Minhag Hamakom still exists today even though in respect to certain laws the greater mobility of today does change its application.For example: someone may be davening Shacharit in a shul that uses the Askenazic liturgy, Mincha in another shul where the davening is Spharadi, and Maariv in yet a third shul where another Nusach is accepted. As a result, the individual- when praying quietly in his place and not acting as the Hazzan(cantor), would continue using the liturgy he inherited from his father and not change it, as he would have done in past generations, to the liturgy of that community in which he now resides(Shu"t Iggrot Moshe). The community's traditions are less binding on him because the definition of community is today more fluid.
That said, the laws of modesty include the obligation on a woman not to expose parts of the body that in a given society are normally covered (this in addition to the obligation to cover certain parts of the body regardless of the general norm). Therefore, one visiting a community or living in a community with definite norms that are more severe than elsewhere should dress according to the accepted norm.
It would however, be incorrect to see all of Jerusalem as a single "makom" with a unified minhag in:re to the specific question that you raised.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:38 pm

SuperWify wrote:

Minhag Hamakom is not specifically related to women. That would be das yehudis.

Last edited by Ema of 5 on Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Perly1

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:40 pm

Daas Yehudis is chiyuv wherever you are - covered from collarbone to below knees and elbows.

Minhag Hamokom refers to other areas where certain places have different practices.

No it isn't silly to cover more in a place where non-Jews do. It's because if all ladies in an Arab country were wearing a burka and you were walking around there in a sheitl, knee length shirt, etc you would stand out as immodest and that's how I understand minhag hamokom.

But everyone should ask their LOR and I'm going to ask for clarity too!

Last edited by Perly1 on Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lemonchiffon

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:40 pm

Perly1 wrote:

According to R' Falk ztl and many Rabbonim there's an issue with wearing maxi skirts. I can't remember exactly why but possibly chukas hagoyim or looking too casual. But I would need to ask my daughter!

Rav Falk is a rav for Gateshead. There is no reason you need ti follow him if you dont live there.

There are always sensitivities around refinement and different communities have different levels of these sensitivities and what they're sensitive to.

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:47 pm

Perly1 wrote:

We are all telling you that you understand it wrong.
You keep mentioning Arab countries. Frum women are not walking around saudi arabia.

amother

Peony

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 12:57 pm

amother Dimgray wrote:

Im not sure how many people I represent but I can tell you my side...
Im from monsey NY, litvish/light yeshivish BY upbringing. Always wore stockings (and hated it!)because I thought it was halacha.
Fast forward many years and now I find out that our Rav (yeshivish, posek)holds it's not halachicly required to cover the lower leg at all.
Well.
Ok then, I now will go out without stockings on. I love it. I still look put together and refined, but now I just wear my flats or sneakers without any stockings and it feels amazzzinng.
I still wear them to school events, shul, simchas etc but every day stockings is no longer BH.

Also, I feel like many other women also have only just learned that not everyone holds its halachicly required.

In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to see the amazing new book on tznius, Reclaiming Dignity, has a page on basic halachic requirements, and they carefully explain that there are some mainstream approaches that hold its not required to cover the lower leg.

So as more women learn this, you might find more women are stopping to cover.

Thats my explanation

Your yeshivish Rav said you are not required to cover the ankles? (Yes,we all define “yeshivish” differently).

Lower leg I have heard many say from way back they were told they dont have to cover.

But its usually knees and ankles need to be, the ‘lower leg’ being whats in between.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:03 pm

amother Peony wrote:

Your yeshivish Rav said you are not required to cover the ankles? (Yes,we all define “yeshivish” differently).

Lower leg I have heard many say from way back they were told they dont have to cover.

But it’s usually knees and ankles need to be, the ‘lower leg’ being whats in between.

I went to BY and never heard that ankles need to be covered.

amother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:04 pm

Lol I ask the same thing . Guess her toes are warmed by her booties . My daughters when they come home from highschool , first thing off is their heavyduty beige seemed pantyhose , they all have sensory issues with it, and hate to wear them . I wish they were allowed something more comfterable , I admire the pantyhose the school demands but feel so bad for them . One daughter actually goes around my house with bobby socks and no tights , it drives me crazy! I never went w/o tights around , she didnt see it by me . my daughter claims theres no issur to go w/o socks at home like big deal who sees me you, my ds.??! I their mom have a natrual tznius feel of being covered at all times. We all know When hashem created the womans body he said tehei isha tzenua. Tzanua means hidden.
we have to be covered why is it ok to show bare feet . Isnt there a halacha ? Maybe its just my own upbringing and community that I grew up in, that puts me in a box. im confused!

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:06 pm

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Daas yehudis is not a thing in yeshivish circles it’s used in mo circles. Yeshivish use minhag hamakom for legs. So when I lived in a mixed community it was ok not to cover my whole leg, now in my yeshivish town I need to cover fully because that’s the general shitta here.

It most certainly is. It's the reason I cover my hair outside of my home and presumably so do you.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

Or maybe you are just blessed not to have sensory issues.

amother

Phlox

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 1:09 pm

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Das yehudis is in the mishna. It is not a recent invention.