Million Man Atzeres

↑ Learning ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:11 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

I don't think they should leave, personally, but they still need to abide by the laws and duties of every citizen.
And BTW, I'm tenth generation here, if that makes any difference.

Even if they want to leave. No country would let them in. The US is not welcoming in new citizens.

ChossidMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:12 pm

Video clip of 600,000 people reciting Shema:

http://www.kooker.co.il/%D7%A6.....7%A9/

↑ Success10 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:18 pm

shlomit wrote:

Even if they want to leave. No country would let them in. The US is not welcoming in new citizens.

If chareidim have to leave Israel, it certainly won't be the first country we've been forced to leave, but I do hope it will be the last.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:19 pm

After a long, hard day, May I have the last word?... Good-night

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:22 pm

DrMom wrote:

I am very tolerant of -- and have the utmost respect for -- people who wish to devote their lives to Torah.
After they have completed their army service, of course.
(And they can study Torah while in the army too.)

As for your second point, there are DL officers in the army in far greater proportion than their mere numbers would predict. These people have been a positive influence on the army's operations.

If haredim want to transform the army to fit their needs, they need to join the army under some sort of framework. But the haredi leadership does not put forth any constructive ideas for how this may happen. They simply throw up obstructions and hyperbolic anti-IDF rhetoric.

So , only if they do what you want do you respect them??? That seems extremely bigoted to me. If the DL were religious they should be wanting the very same things that the Chareidim want??? The DL keep claiming that this is milchemes mitzvah but don't fulfill the criteria of how to act or run an army in one!!!

↑ Learning

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:30 pm

I think we have to listen to the gadol hador. My gadol hador is Harav shteinman. I'm waiting for him to decide and announce what is the next step. And I mean not just how to protest. But how to respond and what to do.

Last edited by Learning on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

black sheep ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:31 pm

mamaleh wrote:

I have one question for those who are saying they won't/wouldn't be there for ideological reasons. What did your Rav say when you asked him?
If you asked your Rav and he told you not to go, then noone can argue with you. If however you didn't even ask, then how do you know you are doing the right thing? I respect anyone who follows their Rav. I do not respect anyone who thinks they know better than the Gedolei Umanhigei Klal Yisroel nor do I think they deserve anyone else's respect.
So if you've asked your Rav and he has told you not to go then please just state that, so we can stop arguing.

did you ask your rav before posting this? I cannot respond until I know you are writing this post with the guidance of your rav, and then if you truly are, I can ask my rav how to respond, and then you can pass along that response to your rav.

actually, why talk at all? let's just get our rabanim on the phone to talk directly to each other, and meanwhile we can sit here eagerly awaiting their decision on what we should say and do.

monseychick ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:33 pm

DrMom wrote:

My shita is not to pay taxes. Why must others force their shita on me? If YOU want to pay taxes, gezunterheit, but I'm not giving up my legally earned cash to pay for services for other people.
Waa! I am persecuted!

EXCELLENT RESPONSE !!!!!

And Im Charedi. But fair is fair.....

If the Israel is such an evil place, and those mean rotten zionists are going to shmad your children. Go to Lakewood or Monsey.... Good luck with the schools

↑ shabbatiscoming

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:38 pm

shlomit wrote:

Here it is again. As you said, YOUR rav is xyz. Mine is different.
And many of us on this board, and in real life, do not live that way, first finding out what a rav says and then proceeding. We do things by common sense. So this applies to a bunch here, but not at all everyone.

↑ monseychick ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:39 pm

DrMom wrote:

See this is an example of a proposal that is so absurd, it's obviously not meant seriously.

Do you honestly expect to be put in charge of an army without joining it? It's like saying you won't vote or pay taxes unless you get to be the Prime Minister and control the Knesset.

And this is precisely, why the Charedi arent in the coaltion anymore.. Too many generations of over-insulation and being overly indulged . And no Reb Moshe or the Chazon Ish to be the voice of seichel

↑ Sanguine

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:43 pm

Ariella28 wrote:

Are you planning on going to the Atzeres? I'm not sure if I will be able to go cos with my kids it will be too hard. But I will try say Tehillim at that time! What about u?

Where is she?? She started this crazy nasty thread. I know she thought she was just asking an innocent question (she said that somewhere 8 pages ago) but I think she should be reported --- HELP!! How do we stop it??

↑ freidasima ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:44 pm

Wow what a thread. Just logged in now.
You all know my opinion so I won't bother boring you with it.
How absolutely wonderful that the women on here don't make government or public policy.
Let me tell you, it's not fun, it's not easy, it's a lot of compromise, a lot of politics and a lot of having to think outside the box...and then no one can be 100% happy with the result because...it's by nature the result of a compromise.
As someone who does this as her daily living, let me tell you, no one is going to like the results of Vaadat shaked no matter what it decides.

The question however is one of demographics. In another 20 years if the country's demographics continue there is going to be a large majority of 18 year olds who are charedi in this country. And that means that if they aren't going to the army there is going to be a big population with a smaller draft than today if these charedim aren't going into the army. Today it's not yet a problem but in one generation it will be one heck of a problem and that's what policy makers are addressing, the future, not the present.

It has nothing to do with wanting to make charedim "secular israelis", and it has nothing to do with "shivyon binetel" today. It has to do with the state of the country in 20 years and that has to be part and parcel of public policy for the next five years which will determine what is going to happen here 15 years after that.

THAT is how we make public policy, just FYI.

Hence before all of this happened, with no connection to the rabble rousing of any party, there have been demographers working for the government, some for the army, some for the otzar (treasury) and some for other offices including my own (public health) who were giving us different forecasts about what the country's demography will be in another 20 years of the present trends continue. Of course there could always be a tremendous change, such as there was in 1988-90 and onwards when the iron curtain came down and the FSU immigrants started coming here en masse, something no one could have really predicted twenty years earlier. We are beginning to get quite an aliya from France but it's a drop in the bucket in terms of tremendous public change.

The ONLY big change that could be would be a tremendous rise of antisemitism and/or problems in the United States that would send a million American Jews to EY within a period of five or six years, THAT could change the county's demography. But there is no other such potential aliyah possible that could do it. Will such a thing happen? Let's say that those producing policy papers have their doubts...

Another possibility that could change the demography,would be if charedi families suddenly had many fewer children all of a sudden. That means that the average of 7-8 children per charedi family would all of a sudden drop to, let's say 3-4 children within the next five years. Is that going to happen? more chance that 1 million american Jews will come on aliyah until 2020...meaning almost no chance at all...so..

And so on. So we work within the forecasts that exist. And they show a problem when we will have more than 60% of the draft age men of 18 and up as charedim who won't be going to the army...
So the government is planning for the future.

Is it bad? Again, you know my opinion so I won't bore you with it. There are those who are saying that if 10,000 charedi men would be inducted every year it would change the demography of the army tremendously and create a need for acclimatizing the army to their special nature and an atmosphere that a lot of things would change. That might be interesting...

Anyhow, as I wrote, I'm glad that the ladies here don't make public policy...

Last edited by freidasima on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:45 pm

For all those telling Chareidim to leave EY My brother and sister in law are in fact moving back after to America after Pesach.I'YH And yes the Israeli government is a major factor in their decision to do so.(They have been keeping one day Yom Tov for years and had no plans of leaving a year ago)But what about those who aren't American citizens What help are YOU willing to give them to leave and resettle?I do in fact think the best option would be if the entire Chareidey population would leave EY.But do they have that option?

↑ ChossidMom

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:50 pm

I'm not going anywhere. And my sons will do whatever our rebbe tells them too.
If he tells them to sit in jail and not serve they will.

↑ monseychick ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:52 pm

Sanguine wrote:

The Average American family has 2.2 kids - explain that one

Sanguine, I take it that math isnt your forte LOL

Millions of people can average 2.2... How does 1 family have half a child....

MommyZ ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:53 pm

Sanguine wrote:

People sign Keva. Make a nice salary and great pension at 45. But how many would join to be the plain infantry soldier? Go home every third Shabbat (if they're lucky). Spend years in a tank? Not that many. Who joins the American army? People who can't do anything else. How many dati Jews do you know who sees it as a good opportunity? I would never push my kids to join the army if every other boy was out advancing their personal life (and if they tell me they can hire a better army - let them).
Policemen and firefighters live at home and work set hours. Jobniks may sleep at home and work set hours. But Kravi soldiers are constantly practicing. Are always moving bases based on the needs of the army. (are we being attacked from the North or the South today?) So till what age do you think someone is willing to live like that? And then what? They wasted those years while their peers went to university and got experience in jobs.
We don't have 300,000,000 people like America.

Woah! Where to start...

There are many reasons why people join the American military and they serve in a multitude of capacities. It has nothing to do with a lack of other career opportunities most of the time.

Police Officers and Fire Fighters may have set hours or they may have mandated overtime and work for more than 24 or 48 hour shifts, not going home every night.

↑ tigerwife

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:02 pm

Sanguine wrote:

Lol.
I'm sure Arriella is hiding on horror from the explosive thread she unwittingly started.
Sorry, Sanguine, but once you get the hockers hocking, it's almost impossible to stop them even though BOTH sides know the others won't be convinced. You'll see lashing insults, researched links, convincing pictures, and just plain nastiness that of course have absolutely NOTHING to so with the original post.

Oh well. There's always the recipe forum. It's usually safe there.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:05 pm

Success10 wrote:

Chareidim lived in E'Y long before there was a medinat Yisrael. I'm not exactly sure why people who don't buy into it should have to leave.

Duh..... For the same reason, Jews left Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, Poland, Russia, Iran, Yemen, Syria....
If the secular Israelis are persecuting you....

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:10 pm

shalhevet wrote:

That's fine then. You can come here and drive us into the sea. When you leave your home in America and bother to come. So glad you are a REAL Zionist (like blue rose). I hope you have a comfortable armchair.

And don't write about things you know nothing about. Next time come and live in Yerushalayim instead of judging events by what you watch on the internet. Maybe I should be DLKZ that you don't know what Tehillim or selichos are.

Imamother has hit a new low today. Too bad I logged in.

So DONT LOG IN.....

I may get DTs without your pearls of wisdom, Shalhevet, but somehow I will manage......

↑ monseychick ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 3:13 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Is that how you make Chala, are you disgracing my holy grandmother's mesora..?
I'll punch you out..... Crying