What did our grandmothers do before double ovens?

amother

Olive

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:21 pm

We have a double full size oven. Our rav said we can do one milchig and one fleishigs, but we can't use both at the same time and have to wait until one has cooled off before using the other.

I grew up with one. My mom uses it for both, uncovered with only cooling off in between. Our rav said when we're there we can eat, but it's based on a safek, so we can't do so ourselves. We would need to wait 24 hours, then self clean or 500, then use, and we shouldn't do so often so we don't get confused. So with one oven, I cover. (Same with the microwave, which is a separate shailah.)

mille

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:21 pm

I really do not know a single person who doesn't use an oven for both meat and dairy, at different times. Like everyone I know either has one oven and uses it for both WITHOUT kashering it in the middle - but will make lasagna on Wednesday for dinner and make chicken for Shabbos on Thursday. It's only really on imamother that I've ever heard anything different, to be honest. The most "right wing" of my friends will wait a full 24 hrs between meat and dairy, but that's the exception I guess in our circles.

And I highly doubt it's that multiple communities of many many many families, mainstream MO rabbis included, are straight up doing something totally wrong.

So interesting. Hm.

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:26 pm

And this is an Omnia stovetop oven very like the old Israeli Wonderpots:

http://www.amazon.com/Omnia-Ov.....=UTF8
People buy them for camping and for RV's.

amother

Olive

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:29 pm

mille wrote:

And I highly doubt it's that multiple communities of many many many families, mainstream MO rabbis included, are straight up doing something totally wrong.

So interesting. Hm.

To my knowledge, our current ovens are not necessarily what is referred to as a "tanur" in halachic discussion, even though tanur means oven in Hebrew. Different types of "ovens" are discussed, and there is a difference of opinion as to which our current ovens are. The type decided on determines what is allowed and what isn't. This accounts for a lot of the differences in psak.

That's why my rav didn't say, "You can eat by your parents because it's allowed, but you shouldn't." He said, "there's a chance it's allowed, so do kibbud eim. But otherwise, we hold it isn't." My parent's rav holds it is definitely ok. So they follow that.

gp2.0

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:37 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Here's an old Hi-Lo style range:

They used to be very common. In my space planning/kitchen design business I get an occasional call from someone who has one that has broken.

Cool! Never seen one of those before. Well yeah in this case the vents would clearly be separate.

ra_mom

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 7:52 pm

Yup, mom has a custom piece like that. Looks better than the one shown (better colors, wear and tear) but hers is probably about the same age.
My mom's broiler is right below the range, before the oven, and is such a great feature. It gets used every day.

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 8:51 pm

Tip for yom tov, etc. when you don't want to self-clean or wait or whatever your rav says: Buy a turkey roaster for your open, unambiguously makes the oven fleishig, dishes. Bonus: on yom tov you can stack 3 9x13 pans in a 22 qt. roaster. They're on sale now.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 9:24 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Here's an old Hi-Lo style range:

They used to be very common. In my space planning/kitchen design business I get an occasional call from someone who has one that has broken.

You can still buy parts for the Gaffers and Stattler, Peerless Premier made them into the the year 2001 (the PP was a much more streamlined setup). The problem was you couldn't install a range hood. Although I think some of the G&S models came with an integrated hood that pulled out from the top oven.

Thanks for posting this.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:11 pm

amother wrote:

To reiterate some of the other comments, I'm amazed you think you have to back a few generations to find people without double ovens.

Don't be silly. I never said that. Until we moved to our current home, we did just fine with one. And my mother still has only one in her kitchen. But you have to admit that when most people remodel kosher kitchens, they put in two ovens--and two sinks. But that's a conversation for a different post.

zaq

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

No? You could have fooled me. Go back and reread your OP, OP. You mentioned grandmothers and mothers. If you did just fine with one oven, why are you asking what your ancestresses did? Why would they have had a harder time with one oven than you had before you acquired the great good luxury of two ovens? And why did you not title your thread "how do people manage without a double oven?"? Why did you imply, nay state outright, that "most" people have double ovens?

MagentaYenta

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:23 pm

I do want to add a point of information. My Grandmother got her first indoor stove when she came to America it was a beast with a hot water jacket and three ovens, wood burning.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:30 pm

In fairness, I think the OP was questioning whether people have become more stringent regarding ovens because of the existence of double ovens or even more sophisticated counter top ovens.

In my limited experience, I would say yes in terms of comparison between what would be considered to be an Orthodox Balabusta in the not so distant past. But what was considered to be Orthodox then would now be considered to be very left wing MO if one needed to label it so hard to compare.

I am familiar with the type of women and men who attended a Young Israel type of shul.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:32 pm

sky wrote:

Honestly, in Europe my grandmother's family probably cooked\baked no milchigs. And they ate very little chicken, only shabbos. otherwise they pretty much lived on beans, bread and vegetables.

Now, now, we can't under-credit as if they ate pareve all week. Don't forget the shmaltz! Shmaltz on bread, shmaltz in beans, shmaltz to fry the veggies. Never did hear my grandmother mention vegetable oil. Yum, yum Very Happy

And for the record, I'm another one who's got one regular oven usually kept pareve, plus a toaster for milchigs. My fleish dishes are usually grilled, cooked on the stovetop, or covered.

Anon because my friends all know me as Madame Pareve LOL

Amarante

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:40 pm

amother wrote:

My great grandmother kept a goose which she hand fed to make it especially fat for goose schmaltz. My Bubbe would laugh when she read about the French gourmet techniques of fattening up their geese for foie gras :-).

MagentaYenta

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

...
I am familiar with the type of women and men who attended a Young Israel type of shul.

Good job getting that Young Israel slam in there at the end.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:47 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Good job getting that Young Israel slam in there at the end.

It wasn't a slam. That was where my Bubbe went. You are completely misinterpreting what I wrote. A slam was the furthest thing from my thoughts as I don't question her piety or practices at all.

The Internet certainly is fraught with communication snafus.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 10:50 pm

amother wrote:

Well then I sincerely apologize if I took it wrong.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 11:05 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Well then I sincerely apologize if I took it wrong.

No problem. Just shows how hard it sometimes is to understand without other cues that exist in face to face communication. Very Happy

amother

Ruby

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 3:56 am

amother wrote:

Assuming our grandmothers and great grandmothers (and continue to go back many generations) didn't have a double oven in their kitchen--how did they cook both meat and dairy? Did they really kasher their oven between cooking meat and dairy each and every time, or have the rules of kashrut become more stringent in recent years?

why would u assume that everyone has a double oven?? I don't!!!

my oven is pareve and I cook my chicken covered and when I want to make cheesecake once a year I kasher it and use it for that then kasher it back

champion

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 4:38 am

I am far from being a grandmother. I dont own a double oven. thank hashem that you are so spoiled you cant imagine anybody in the past two generations making do without such an extra. huff.....