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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Preschoolers

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Crayon210

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 12:26 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

you are correct that it is important to teach girls halacha, but there are such things as women's pants (I am just being the devils advocate here, I dont wear pants)

Not everyone holds that there's such a thing as "women's pants".

Quote:

and there is also such a thing as a girl being too young to even know from the halacha yet and I believe that it does not matter then.

Do those girls eat non-kosher? Do those girls break Shabbos?

Is there a halachic source for actively allowing girls too young to understand halacha to break it?

Quote:

I will say that my parents let us girls choose when to stop wearing pants and I stopped b4 I was bat mitzvahed. all of my chevra wore skirts and so it was just the correct things to do.

Again, what would have happened if you never wanted to stop?

And according to many poskim, tznius does not start at 12.

Quote:

I know other ppl that are pretty charedi (in USA) and the little daughter had a dress that had little sleeves. a friend asked, oh, shouldnt she not wear that b/c it is too short? and the mother said, no, its ok for now, she's so young that she does not know the halacha yet and we dont want her to become fanatical about it all. when the time is correct we will teach her the correct ways. and you know what? in both cases, my family and this friend, the children all dress in tzanua ways and none have rebelled with pants and little sleeved clothing.

Tefila

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 1:09 pm

Quote:

Could you please tell me where in the U.S it is acceptable for FRUM women to wear pants? This I have never heard of.

I have heard that some mo hold that culottes (baggy skirt like pants) r permissable. Anyways what has seperation btw the legs got to do w/h pj's for bedtime Confused

Ruchel

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 1:19 pm

willow wrote:

ytwh1 wrote:

.. I know communities where it is acceptable for frum girls to wear pants.

Could you please tell me where in the U.S it is acceptable for FRUM women to wear pants? This I have never heard of.

Some of my MO cousins in America wear pants.

batya_d

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 2:07 pm

I think before the age of about 3, it's counterproductive to tznius dress little girls in skirts and dresses for everyday wear. I don't have children myself, but based on observation, skirts and dresses end up lifted over a little girl's head/tucked into diapers more often than not!

Crayon210

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 2:14 pm

I have never heard of anyone having girls wear skirts before age 3.

Are there any such communities?

yoyosma

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 2:42 pm

Try having your little girl wear a skirt while attempting to crawl!! NOT productive!! Very Happy

chocolate moose

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:31 pm

a lot of girls will start to wear jumpers or dresses at 2 or 2 1/2 for chinuch.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:33 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

and there is also such a thing as a girl being too young to even know from the halacha yet and I believe that it does not matter then.

Do those girls eat non-kosher? Do those girls break Shabbos?

Is there a halachic source for actively allowing girls too young to understand halacha to break it?

Quote:

I will say that my parents let us girls choose when to stop wearing pants and I stopped b4 I was bat mitzvahed. all of my chevra wore skirts and so it was just the correct things to do.

Again, what would have happened if you never wanted to stop?

And according to many poskim, tznius does not start at 12.

Quote:

That's fortunate, but has nothing to do with the fact that the girls were allowed to wear the clothes when they did. In fact, I would argue that it's much more worthwhile to dress a girl more b'tznius from an earlier age so there are no questions later: girls wear skirts, not pants; girls wear long sleeves, not short; girls cover their legs, etc. It would seem to be more difficult to make the change once the girl has opinions about what she's wearing.[/quote]

breaking shabbat is soooooo different than having a young girl not wear skirts all the time. also, if the girl is in the correct setting, in school, home life, she WILL see that the tzniut way of life is better. that was how it worked for me.
also, as I see here, everyone has a different attitude as to what is tzniut. I for one wear short sleeves (near my elbow - I learned that a tefach showing is ok) so to teach a girl about long sleeves would do nothing. same too ppl teach their children different things at different times.
to each their own!

Mama Bear

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 4:42 pm

I wore pj pants under my nightgown until I was about 16, for tznius reasons!

Crayon210

Sun, Jun 04 2006, 6:39 pm

Why is Shabbos different than tznius?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 7:12 am

I think that shabbat is different than tzniut only in the way that if you transgress shabbat, you have done something 100% wrong....
in tzniut there are MANY MANY MANY shades of grey. thats all I meant!

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 10:38 am

There are shades of gray? I know between poskim there can be differences of opinion, but in my family, for instance, there is no "gray" in tznius--there's mutar and assur, just like in every other halacha (in what you might call "gray", one would call a rav and ask a shaila, just like in every other area).

I still don't really understand your point.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 10:58 am

Crayon210 wrote:

ok, not sure really what you dont get.
in some kehillot ppl dress exactly the same as everyone else in tzanua terms, but in other kehilot ppl have a variety to the level and all of that that is kept. for example, I learned my whole life that a woman can have a tefach showing in both her hair and elbow. I also learned that you do not have to wear socks, you can wear just sandals with nothing. I learned that you have to wear a skirt that will cover your knees while sitting and standing. but other ppl might have learned that you have to cover your elbow, that the tefach goes down and not up and that all of ones hair has to be covered etc...that is what I meant by gray areas....
does that make more sense?

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:06 pm

I don't understand why within one family there would be gray.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:18 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I don't understand why within one family there would be gray.

why not? that can happen anywhere. just because there is a certain way that everyone is thought to dress, there may be one "ugly duckling" who just wants to be different or to cause a ruckus or just wants to do something else, for no other reason other than that is what they want to do.
in my family it happened. we all went to single relations high schools and then my brother ended up in a co ed high school (he picked it, it was better educationaly for him in so many ways he decided) ppl were very curious as to why he picked that school and were very surprised but you know what? so he didnt fit the mold that so many ppl thought we were, who cares? he is still a wonderful person and jew and that, I feel, is all that matters.
everyone practices differently for sure!

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:32 pm

I still don't understand what that has to do with anything. By that logic, since within one family, some might use the eruv and some might not, some might open packages on Shabbos and some might not, some might take the mail in and some might not...then there shouldn't be any standards at all and the kids should choose when they want to start keeping Shabbos. The same could work with kashrus and every area of halacha.

Why is tznius different?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:36 pm

ok, maybe its not different but all of the examples that you gave could really happen. I am not saying that we should just let our children choose everything how they want but I am saying that it could happen, thats all.

as for why tznius may be different, I dont think that there are shades of grey about shomer shabbat, but in terms of dress, as I said, there are different opinions as to what is allowed and what is not.

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:38 pm

But there ARE shades of gray about Shabbos and kashrus and just about every halachic area...

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 12:44 pm

fine kashrut I see (although I dint personally understand the whole concept of a billion different hechsheirim) but shabbat? how are there any shades of grey? you have to keep shabbat, ze hu, no? what am I missing?

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 05 2006, 1:04 pm

Using an eiruv, opening up containers, things that are not "Shabbosdik" but aren't technically assur, etc...

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