Where does Torah prohibit the s-xual abuse of children?

amother

Mon, May 29 2006, 10:23 pm

Or does it now?

Seriously. I have never seen it discussed, and it bothers me deeply. Incest is mentioned as forbidden. But besides that - ?

I don't even understand how incest can be in the same category as other s. sins... after all the damage that can be done to a child is incomparable.

And I totally do not get how we can have adult men marrying little girls.

Can somebody pls explain this to me?

I was a s. abuse victim and I would love to see somewhere Hashem condemning these kinds of things... Instead I open the Chumash and read about how a rape victim gets to marry the rapist, and the buyer of the Ama Ivriah has a mitzva to marry her.

Help?

amother

Mon, May 29 2006, 10:25 pm

First line was supposed to read: "or does it noT"

yoyosma

Mon, May 29 2006, 10:30 pm

Quote:

Instead I open the Chumash and read about how a rape victim gets to marry the rapist, and the buyer of the Ama Ivriah has a mitzva to marry her.

Firstly, I am sorry to read that you had to go through what you did, and I wish you only strength and happiness for your future.
Secondly, the point I highlighted always bothered me so much, I agree with you. Why would a woman marry her rapist? Why is this considered something good or something she would even want?
I remember asking my teachers about this, and they didnt have an answer, or their answers were made up of "Well he has to marry her so it all works out". I chalked it up to Frum teachers being uncomfortable discussing these issues with their HS students (which personally I think is nuts, if she is asking, tell her so she doesnt find out elsewhere). But now as I am older I wonder, as female teachers, didnt they have a problem teaching this to us? I know certain parts of Chumash are unavoidable, but as a female, one should have more sensitivity.
I KNOW I am going to be bashed for this so I hesitate as I write it, but this to me is another example of how the Torah is totally patriarchal. Yes, I know the Lubavitcher Rebbe was really into how women are the source of all good in the world, etc. I am Lubavitch myself, but even those explanations never cut it for me.

Flowerchild

Mon, May 29 2006, 11:08 pm

this is an interesting question, I am wondering myself, theres got to be a way to find out.

Quote:

, but this to me is another example of how the Torah is totally patriarchal

yoyosma, wouldnt this statement mean someone who sees torah that way assumes that it was written by men and not G-d? in my view when you say that something is either patriarchal or matriarcahl it gives a value of a human form, rather than godly. I see torah as an all encompassing, yes there are times when it can be patriarchal, but I think that its more nuetral. jewish women are very much respected and even praised and valued, I mean look at purim because of one woman or her being a huge part saved us and its mentioned quite well.

torah is too holy and so is our religion so its hard for me to see it in your view.

if someone finds a source for the topic of this thread that would be great

and yoyosma, I am not bashing you at all I am just thinking outloud for conversation sake Smile

Tefila

Mon, May 29 2006, 11:17 pm

Quote:

Why would a woman marry her rapist?

a) She would marry Only if she wanted to Exclamation

And b) it's a protection to the women Exclamation

it shows he can't just have fun and do what he wants but he has a responsibility now, since he can't use her, abuse her by dumping her.

This law would also deter others from doing it.
How many times does it happen in the frum world rape c'mon now. Though a few times is way too many but it's not like a everday occurance B"H

Flowerchild

Mon, May 29 2006, 11:47 pm

maybe it doesnt seem like an every day occurance because its not talked about?

yoyosma

Tue, May 30 2006, 12:03 am

Tefila, Lily is correct, rape isnt talked about. Neither is s-xual abuse, spousal abuse etc. This is just one of the many things that are kept quiet for "Shidduchim"s sake.

Lily, I just had written a whole answer based on your matriarchal/patriarchal point, but decided to erase it. This isnt something I care to argue. I love being a woman, would not change it for a thing, but know PLENTY of frum ehrliche women who resent the fact that they are not considered equal in forms of Torah reading, Davening, Rabbanus, and even dancing on Simchas Torah.

yoyosma

Tue, May 30 2006, 12:05 am

Quote:

This law would also deter others from doing it.

Because marrying the woman you have ruined is SUCH a drag......

Flowerchild

Tue, May 30 2006, 12:07 am

yoyosma I wouldnt argue with you at all, I dont like arguing, I was just curious to see what you think. it would of been an interesting conversation thats all. I am not into bashing and pointing fingers at other people. I respect your opinion, and views, I just thought it would be an interesting conversation thats all.

ButterflyGarden

Tue, May 30 2006, 1:51 am

Quote:

This is just one of the many things that are kept quiet for "Shidduchim"s sake.

Um, more than that, I think it's just not something a victim would not want to shout from the roof tops. B'H I have not personally beed through either, but I'm very close with people who have. Even after they are married, it's just not something they want broadcast to the world.

PS I know I spelled something wrong, but spellcheck will not tell me what. Sorry!

yoyosma

Tue, May 30 2006, 2:12 am

Re: my shidduchim comment: consider that very much loaded with sarcasm.

Mamushka

Tue, May 30 2006, 5:46 am

The closest to an answer I got was that the rapist would have to marry the girl he raped is never allowed to divorce her and has to pay a a fine. Being married would mean that she is financially taken care of for the rest of her life. This is an explanation which might have been right once apon a time when women weren't allowed to work. But the Tora is given for anytime and not only for times when women were looked up in the house. I don't get it eighter. I can not imagine a rapist being a loving and caring husband, so why should any girl get married to such an animal.

I don't know of any place where the topic of s. abuse of children is discussed, but I would say that it would fall under the Issur of injuring other people.

My heart goes out to anyone who has suffered from abuse.

amother

Tue, May 30 2006, 7:58 am

Yeah, I heard of that explanation (that now she is financially taken care of - very imp. since now noone else will marry her!) BUT: that is just an attempt at justice for the girl. WHY ISN"T THERE A MORE SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR THE GUY? or at least more severe wording?

It's almost like the girl is just a piece of china in a store. All that matters is $ and her virginity is her most valuable selling point. So when she's "broken" oh well, you break it you keep it.

But doesn't her perspective matter at all?

Or maybe in the olden days people didn't mind being raped????

Also - does the Torah recognize that s-xual abuse is not just actual penetration? Because you know what - a kid's life can be destroyed even without penetration.

Re whether it fits under the general category of injuring someone else... I wonder. Why wouldn't it ever be mentioned specifically? It is a big deal!!! Maybe it never used to happen?

Motek

Tue, May 30 2006, 8:18 am

A few comments that cover:

1) is there a torah prohibition against s-xual molestation of children

2) adults marrying children

3) halachos of rape (and slaves)

4) is the Torah patriarchal

5) is rape an everyday occurrence or not among Jewish/frum people

6) is a girl's worth measured only by her virginity

whew!

rosehill

Tue, May 30 2006, 9:01 am

R' Aryeh Ginzberg, of the Chofetz Chaim Torah Center of Cedarhurst, sent out the following e-mail to the 5 Towns Jewish Community last Erev Shabbes. It addresses something that was written in the secular media, but I believe it addresses your question as well:

Dear Community Members:

Over the last few days, a number of people have brought to my
attention an article from a secular publication asserting that a
world-renowned Rosh Hayeshiva issued a halachic ruling regarding child
molestation. This alleged ruling – through this publication – has
resulted in widespread Chilul Hashem and gross misrepresentation of
clear and indisputable Halacha.

The purpose of this letter is not to address the context of the quote,
the alleged ruling in question or the specifics of the primary
accusations made in the article. This letter is about clarifying the
position of halacha with regard to child abuse, to the extent that
position has been clouded by these recent events. Moreover, this
letter is about urgently disseminating essential halachic facts which
-- hopefully -- will serve to mitigate the potential damage and
destruction caused by this mischaracterization.

It is incumbent upon all Rabbonim worldwide to unite and unequivocally
declare that Orthodox Judaism absolutely forbids child abuse of any
kind – s-xual and non-s-xual. And, as with any other allegation of
halachic wrongdoing, the appropriate testimony must be given, and the
appropriate proceedings must be convened, in order to establish the
truth of any accusations.

Allow me to be among the first to make this declaration, and I speak
not only for myself but also for the Rosh Hayeshiva named in this
publication, with whom I have consulted:

s-xually abusing a child in any form is a flagrant violation of our
Torah. Halacha absolutely prohibits any and all such conduct. No
"benchmark" exists to qualify a s-xually motivated act as child
molestation, and there are no "technical defenses" to justify child
abuse. To be crystal clear: the touching of a child in a s-xual manner
is utterly forbidden by our Torah and by our mesorah.

It is my hope and prayer that this letter will serve to clarify any
confusion about the Torah view on these very serious issues.
Obviously, this is not a scholarly letter or article -- now is not the
time for Talmudic sources, lengthy discussions or intellectual
debates. It is simply the time to set the record straight – solely for
the purpose of abruptly ending the Chilul Shaim Shomayim facilitated
by the dissemination of the supposed Torah viewpoint reported in the
article.

Child abuse is forbidden. An issue this easy does not need further
clarification. It is my sincere hope that, in consultation with other
Rabbonim in our community, we can collectively and effectively
formulate appropriate strategies to ensure that the issue of child
abuse is dealt with appropriately, proactively and swiftly in our
community and beyond.

Good Shabbos.

Rabbi Aryeh Ginzberg

goldrose

Tue, May 30 2006, 9:12 am

well, that certainly answers #1 of motek's comments. but he doesnt give sources (not that what he's saying is discredited by the lack of sources, he clearly says why he doesnt give sources, but here on this forum, we are looking for sources).

Motek

Tue, May 30 2006, 9:44 am

the rabbi I asked said:

Quote:

You asked me a while ago what the aveirah would be for s-xual abuse of a kid not reaching the level of mishkav zochor (sodomy), and I responded by saying chovel / mazik. Now that I think of it, I would have to say that the isser of lo sikravu legalos ervah would also apply --- since this would constitute negiah with someone who is an ervah derech chibah.

We just dont ever consider touching men ervah because its never derech chibah, but there's nothing in the posuk that excludes mishkav zochor negiyah from the prohibition. That being the case, I would also imagine there is abizrayhu d'gilyu arayos in such a case which would make it yehoreg v'al yaavor.

I just thought of this this morning and I did nto have a chance to check it out. But I think this would be correct.

ask your own LOR for further explication!

Ruchel

Tue, May 30 2006, 11:27 am

yoyosma wrote:

Quote:

Instead I open the Chumash and read about how a rape victim gets to marry the rapist, and the buyer of the Ama Ivriah has a mitzva to marry her.

Why would a woman marry her rapist? Why is this considered something good or something she would even want?

I've learned it's because seducing a girl into having s-x is classified as rape too so she might be in love.
Imho it shows the Torah is not patriarchal, because it would mean all the awful guys who have one night stands and then dump the girl would have to marry the first victim!

MommyLuv

Tue, May 30 2006, 1:07 pm

Ruchel- maybe these "poor" girls who agree to these one night stands would think twice about offering their bodies if they had to marry the guys they were having one night stands with!! Mad

Mamushka

Tue, May 30 2006, 2:06 pm

A thought that just came to my mind (this has to be checked out) is that maybe because everything that is written about whom you are allowed to and when we learn what is forbidden.