Would you do the bris?

sarahd

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:06 pm

A woman called a mohel and asked him to do a bris on her son. She mentioned that the baby's father was not Jewish and was opposed to his son having a bris, but agreed on condition that after the bris he would take the baby to church and have him baptized.

Would you do the bris under those conditions?

Inspired

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:44 pm

I think the halacha would be to yes do the bris because in that circumstance beis din or the kehilla is mechuyav to mahl the kid. He doesn't have a [jewish] father. You really can't control what the patrents will do to him afterward but a kosher bris is a good start.

sarahd

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 6:05 am

I also would have done the bris under those circumstances, but the mohel that was called asked a shaila and was told he cannot do it. He was pretty surprised at the answer and asked other poskim, pretty much going up the hierarchy till he got to gedolei haposkim in the US and EY and he was told by all of them he should not do the bris. Interesting, eh?

hila

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 6:14 am

Unless it was not quite as you posted.. if he said " if you dont do the Brit, then I wont do the baptism.."

Maybe the Rabanim saw it as a way to avoid Baptism.

If he was going to be baptised anyway - then why not do the Brit as a kosher Brit, he is a Jewish baby.

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 7:25 am

hila wrote:

Unless it was not quite as you posted.. if he said " if you dont do the Brit, then I wont do the baptism.."

Maybe the Rabanim saw it as a way to avoid Baptism.

But we believe in the brit, it has meaning and a purpose - a baptism means nothing. Why forgo such an important part of our tradition because of some person shpritzing the baby with water from the Yarden, who cares?
If we were talking about a child who will know and remember I can see it and in an adult I can see it as idolotry - but its a baby with feh - why put stock into their spiritual rituals if what we believe is true, that there is just ONE hashem, and that a person who's mother is a jew is a jew - then being 'baptized' just cannot matter and should have no effect on the child.

sarahd

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 7:43 am

The father was a mainstream Christian and the baptism was conditioned on the child having a bris, I.e. no bris, no baptism.

The psak was that baptism is shmad, even if the child is not consenting to it (could the mother be considered to be consenting to it by making the bris?) and making a bris would be causing the child to undergo shmad.

Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a [gentile] and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.

Even if there would be a chiyuv, would it override the issur of shmad, which is yehareg ve'al yaavor?

sarahd

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 7:44 am

JC, baptism does mean something, just as bowing down to idols means something, even if you don't believe in them. Why did all those Jews die through the ages for refusing to kiss the cross?

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 8:03 am

sarahd wrote:

JC, baptism does mean something, just as bowing down to idols means something, even if you don't believe in them. Why did all those Jews die through the ages for refusing to kiss the cross?

adults not babies. Yes the adult making the choice to be over avodah zorah is one thing, but it is the choice to do it thats the problem.

If you found out that while you were sleeping you were put in the position of bowing down - would it mean you deserved to die? The sin isnt that there is a true god behind the idol that you were worshiping, it is the act of not standing up for Hashem.

And to go a bit off topic - while I might choose to die before I bowed down to an idol (and may I never need to find out what my choice would be.) I am sure with every fiber of my body that I would give my baby to the church to save his life - because I TRULY BELIEVE that as a jew his neshama will find its way back.

actually I think I will take this to another thread...

WriterMom

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 8:51 am

So this child, if he decides he wants to live a Jewish life, will have to have a bris as an adult? Ugh. Obviously it's a complicated situation, but I would imagine this greatly reduces of him choosing Judaism later on, especially if this is the first association he has with it.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 9:14 am

I'm not sure.

I'm not very pro-Bris anyway (even though we did for both my sons because I don't view it as a choice). If I could avoid giving my son a bris, I would do it. But then again, when he turns 13 he will be obligated to do it himself.

One more reason to not sleep with a non-Jew.

hadasa

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 9:34 am

WriterMom wrote:

Somehow, I doubt it's the first Mitzvah his Mekarevers will introduce to him. There are many BT's who needed to have a Bris at some point in their journey towards Yiddishkeit. And many Jews from the FSU who chose to have a Bris even if they didn't become Frum.

amother

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:00 am

How can someone say they are not pro bris!! never even thought about that when I had my boys. not only is it a mitzva, but even non jewish familes do it now for healt reasons

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:33 am

Zus wrote:

What does that mean, you're not very pro-bris anyway??? What a strange thing to say for a frum woman.

At my second son's bris, they had to resuture his skin. A few hours after his first bris, he basically had to have a second one. He was screaming for a half hour while the mohel stitched him up. Why do we cut a poor little baby and give him no pain medicine? Nothing but a little wine to suck on... I see no reason for this pain other than G-d said so. True, its a mitzvah so we did it, but if I had a choice I wouldn't give my son a bris.

I personally was traumatized after that experience. I hope to have no more sons because I don't know how well I would react post partum after last time. I'm not sure I would let a mohel get anywhere near my son.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:34 am

amother wrote:

How can someone say they are not pro bris!! never even thought about that when I had my boys. not only is it a mitzva, but even non jewish familes do it now for healt reasons

Actually, less and less people are circumcising. There is no conclusive evidence that circumcising is good for health. That's like removing an infants tonsils so they won't possibly get infected.