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-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
prettyone
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 Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:20 pm
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oh and not everyone works well with trying to understand the mitzvos. For me I found it to be worse for my bitachon than better. So I stopped trying to understand and do the Torah cuz Hashem said. Otherwise I just get frustrated.
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Barbara
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:22 pm
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You know the old saying, there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics. Be that as it may, according to cirp.org (the "Circumcision Reference Library* -- I kid you not), *The intact rate among newborn males in the U.S. has increased from 15 percent in 1965 to 44.5 percent in 2006. This is an increase of 294 percent.* That's a pretty significant decrease in the circ rate.
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chaylizi
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:25 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | You know the old saying, there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics. Be that as it may, according to cirp.org (the "Circumcision Reference Library* -- I kid you not), *The intact rate among newborn males in the U.S. has increased from 15 percent in 1965 to 44.5 percent in 2006. This is an increase of 294 percent.* That's a pretty significant decrease in the circ rate. |
that is a pretty significant decrease, but those were not the stats that saw50st8 quoted. I was going by those, because I have no reason to care if non-Jews stay intact or not & thus I didn't do more research than she did.
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Barbara
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:28 pm
| prettyone wrote: | | hadasa wrote: | We're going a bit off topic here, but I wouldn't call Mitzvos immoral, wrong or silly, just incomprehensible.
And although we keep the Mitzvos whether we understand them or not, we are supposed to try to understand and internalize them to the best of our ability. |
Ch'v Im not calling them immoral. Im saying that to my personal understanding they seem ___ fill in the adjective of choice. but because I have limited understanding of the Torah I therefore do mitzvos cuz Hashem said and not because I think something is right, wrong, silly, not silly, immoral, moral etc. |
But we also have to accept that some mitzvot have no comprehensible basis, or if there was once what people considered a comprehensible basis, its gone now.
I'll grant that untreated wooden utensils absorbed, but practically and molecularly, I doubt my stainless does, or my dishes. Still I have 2 sets. Why? Because I'm supposed to.
For me, bris is one of those things. Thinking about it from an unbiased POV. its a pretty strange thing to do. But we're suppose to do it, so we do.
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saw50st8
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:29 pm
| chaylizi wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | You know the old saying, there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics. Be that as it may, according to cirp.org (the "Circumcision Reference Library* -- I kid you not), *The intact rate among newborn males in the U.S. has increased from 15 percent in 1965 to 44.5 percent in 2006. This is an increase of 294 percent.* That's a pretty significant decrease in the circ rate. |
that is a pretty significant decrease, but those were not the stats that saw50st8 quoted. I was going by those, because I have no reason to care if non-Jews stay intact or not & thus I didn't do more research than she did. |
I also said when I quoted the article that I didn't have much time.
And yes, the rates have been declining overall for the last 100 years, even if there was an increase at some point. I didn't have time to look. I've researched this in the past, so forgive me for not quoting all the right places.
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chaylizi
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:30 pm
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But you didn't say you thought bris was wrong or immoral, just strange. There are definitely mitzvos that we are supposed to realize there is no comprehensible reason, but bris isn't one of those.
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chaylizi
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:32 pm
| saw50st8 wrote: | | chaylizi wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | You know the old saying, there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics. Be that as it may, according to cirp.org (the "Circumcision Reference Library* -- I kid you not), *The intact rate among newborn males in the U.S. has increased from 15 percent in 1965 to 44.5 percent in 2006. This is an increase of 294 percent.* That's a pretty significant decrease in the circ rate. |
that is a pretty significant decrease, but those were not the stats that saw50st8 quoted. I was going by those, because I have no reason to care if non-Jews stay intact or not & thus I didn't do more research than she did. |
I also said when I quoted the article that I didn't have much time.
And yes, the rates have been declining overall for the last 100 years, even if there was an increase at some point. I didn't have time to look. I've researched this in the past, so forgive me for not quoting all the right places. |
So now that we are understanding that circ rates among non jews have been declining, who cares? What is the point of this research? They are not obligated in bris. They have no reason to.
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prettyone
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:49 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | prettyone wrote: | | hadasa wrote: | We're going a bit off topic here, but I wouldn't call Mitzvos immoral, wrong or silly, just incomprehensible.
And although we keep the Mitzvos whether we understand them or not, we are supposed to try to understand and internalize them to the best of our ability. |
Ch'v Im not calling them immoral. Im saying that to my personal understanding they seem ___ fill in the adjective of choice. but because I have limited understanding of the Torah I therefore do mitzvos cuz Hashem said and not because I think something is right, wrong, silly, not silly, immoral, moral etc. |
But we also have to accept that some mitzvot have no comprehensible basis, or if there was once what people considered a comprehensible basis, its gone now.
I'll grant that untreated wooden utensils absorbed, but practically and molecularly, I doubt my stainless does, or my dishes. Still I have 2 sets. Why? Because I'm supposed to.
For me, bris is one of those things. Thinking about it from an unbiased POV. its a pretty strange thing to do. But we're suppose to do it, so we do. |
I think all mitzvos - even the ones that do give explanations- have no comprehensible basis. meaning every reason out there is missing some parts to it and can be refuted logically if taken apart. Therefore I dont try to logically understand cuz eventually I will hit a brick wall in the expanation. I came to terms with this and just do it because I beleive in Hashem
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prettyone
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 2:52 pm
| chaylizi wrote: | | But you didn't say you thought bris was wrong or immoral, just strange. There are definitely mitzvos that we are supposed to realize there is no comprehensible reason, but bris isn't one of those. |
I can make an arguement that it is wrong or immoral but that would be because I am limited and dont understand not because it is actually wrong or immoral.
The limitation is not with the mitzvah, it is with the pple trying to understand it.
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sky
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 3:15 pm
| sarahd wrote: | The father was a mainstream Christian and the baptism was conditioned on the child having a bris, I.e. no bris, no baptism.
The psak was that baptism is shmad, even if the child is not consenting to it (could the mother be considered to be consenting to it by making the bris?) and making a bris would be causing the child to undergo shmad.
Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a [gentile] and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.
Even if there would be a chiyuv, would it override the issur of shmad, which is yehareg ve'al yaavor? |
I always thought that if a child is not given a bris by his father it becomes the entire communities responsiblity to give the bris. That is why in some communitites in Europe no shul would say tachanun if anybody was having a bris in the entire community, because it was everyones job to give the brish.
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hycup
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 4:30 pm
| sarahd wrote: |
Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a [gentile] and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.
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What's the source that women are not obligated? It's not a mitzvah shehazman gramma. Although it's done on the 8th day, it can be done over the course of that day (max 14 hours?). Just like keeping shabbos, mezuzah, chinuch banim/banos, etc. Not only that, but I learned that a woman can do a bris (we learn this from tzipora) but women don't do it these days for some reason or another (don't remember probably like women not writing sifrei torah even though they are allowed to). Remember that famous story of Chana and her 7 (or was it 8 ) sons? She did the bris on the baby. So, as far as I see it, this woman has the obligation. Her husband might change his mind after it's done. So I don't think the rabanim said no because of the baptisim.
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chaylizi
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 4:41 pm
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Tziporah only did it because Moshe's life was in peril because of neglecting to do so.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 4:48 pm
I have never heard of baptism as "making you not Jewish". From what I have read, opinions range from "no effect" to "you need to toivel before joining back the community". But no conversion process.
I agree that until you've found the speaker, book or rav that inspires you, hearing explanations on mitsvos can harm more than help.
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hycup
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 4:48 pm
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chaylizi learning it in depth, you see that moshe was half way through performing it when the 'nachash/monster' apeared. Still, we learn out of it that women are allowed to do brisim.
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hadasa
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 5:30 pm
| prettyone wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | prettyone wrote: | | hadasa wrote: | We're going a bit off topic here, but I wouldn't call Mitzvos immoral, wrong or silly, just incomprehensible.
And although we keep the Mitzvos whether we understand them or not, we are supposed to try to understand and internalize them to the best of our ability. |
Ch'v Im not calling them immoral. Im saying that to my personal understanding they seem ___ fill in the adjective of choice. but because I have limited understanding of the Torah I therefore do mitzvos cuz Hashem said and not because I think something is right, wrong, silly, not silly, immoral, moral etc. |
But we also have to accept that some mitzvot have no comprehensible basis, or if there was once what people considered a comprehensible basis, its gone now.
I'll grant that untreated wooden utensils absorbed, but practically and molecularly, I doubt my stainless does, or my dishes. Still I have 2 sets. Why? Because I'm supposed to.
For me, bris is one of those things. Thinking about it from an unbiased POV. its a pretty strange thing to do. But we're suppose to do it, so we do. |
I think all mitzvos - even the ones that do give explanations- have no comprehensible basis. meaning every reason out there is missing some parts to it and can be refuted logically if taken apart. Therefore I dont try to logically understand cuz eventually I will hit a brick wall in the expanation. I came to terms with this and just do it because I beleive in Hashem |
That's why Naaseh comes before Nishma. The basis of Kiyum haMitzvos is Naaseh - I accept upon myself to do, to fulfill Hashem's will, which is beyond my understanding. My understanding is certainly not a condition to fulfilling the Mitzvah.
But after the Naaseh, there is Nishma. After I have accepted that the Mitzvah is beyond my understanding, I now have an obligation to try to understand it to the best of my (limited) ability. The fact that I don't understand fully will not weaken my commitment, since my commitment precedes and is not based on my understanding. But the understanding and internalising now enhances my fulfillment of the Mitzvah.
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sarahd
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 6:25 pm
| hycup wrote: | | sarahd wrote: |
Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a [gentile] and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.
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What's the source that women are not obligated? |
Talmud Yerushalmi, Kiddushin 81. You can also look in Sefer HaChinuch (mitzva 2) which states clearly that women are not obligated to have their sons circumcised.
| Quote: | | It's not a mitzvah shehazman gramma. Although it's done on the 8th day, it can be done over the course of that day (max 14 hours?). Just like keeping shabbos, mezuzah, chinuch banim/banos, etc. Not only that, but I learned that a woman can do a bris (we learn this from tzipora) but women don't do it these days for some reason or another (don't remember probably like women not writing sifrei torah even though they are allowed to). Remember that famous story of Chana and her 7 (or was it 8 ) sons? She did the bris on the baby. So, as far as I see it, this woman has the obligation. |
Halacha sees it differently, though. (And a woman being permitted to perform a bris does not translate into women having a chiyuv to have their sons "brissed".)
| Quote: | | Her husband might change his mind after it's done. So I don't think the rabanim said no because of the baptisim. |
Well, that's the reason they gave. Why would they give an untrue reason?
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sarahd
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 6:29 pm
| sky wrote: | | sarahd wrote: | The father was a mainstream Christian and the baptism was conditioned on the child having a bris, I.e. no bris, no baptism.
The psak was that baptism is shmad, even if the child is not consenting to it (could the mother be considered to be consenting to it by making the bris?) and making a bris would be causing the child to undergo shmad.
Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a [gentile] and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.
Even if there would be a chiyuv, would it override the issur of shmad, which is yehareg ve'al yaavor? |
I always thought that if a child is not given a bris by his father it becomes the entire communities responsiblity to give the bris. That is why in some communitites in Europe no shul would say tachanun if anybody was having a bris in the entire community, because it was everyones job to give the brish. |
Actually, it would be beis din's responsibility, not the community's (according to Sefer HaChinuch.) However, if beis din would perform the bris, they would be causing shmad to the child. Therefore the bris can't be done.
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saw50st8
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Mon, Feb 08 2010, 11:26 pm
| chaylizi wrote: | | saw50st8 wrote: | | chaylizi wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | You know the old saying, there are 3 kinds of lies -- lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics. Be that as it may, according to cirp.org (the "Circumcision Reference Library* -- I kid you not), *The intact rate among newborn males in the U.S. has increased from 15 percent in 1965 to 44.5 percent in 2006. This is an increase of 294 percent.* That's a pretty significant decrease in the circ rate. |
that is a pretty significant decrease, but those were not the stats that saw50st8 quoted. I was going by those, because I have no reason to care if non-Jews stay intact or not & thus I didn't do more research than she did. |
I also said when I quoted the article that I didn't have much time.
And yes, the rates have been declining overall for the last 100 years, even if there was an increase at some point. I didn't have time to look. I've researched this in the past, so forgive me for not quoting all the right places. |
So now that we are understanding that circ rates among non jews have been declining, who cares? What is the point of this research? They are not obligated in bris. They have no reason to. |
It was in response to amother who said that non Jews circumcise for health reasons. I was just pointing out less and less are doing it.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Tue, Feb 09 2010, 10:40 am
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If the father goes ahead and baptizes the child, is the mohel allowed to do the bris post facto? I would assume so since the basis of the psak is gone...I'm just curious.
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