wall imperfection, remembering Jeru?

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Wall imperfection, remembering Jeru?

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Ilovechoumous

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 7:39 am

we just got our walls painted and forgot to leave a square.

is this halacha?
do we still have to scrape out a bit? where do we do it? what exactly is this called?
can we scrape out something other than a square?

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 10:00 am

AFAIK it's halacha and you have to leave/ scrape off an ama square opposite the entrance. Ask your LOR.

Ilovechoumous

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 10:51 am

what is this called? in hebrew?

does it have to be an ama? can I scrape it into a dome like shape, that is an ama? or does it have to be a square?

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:32 am

It's only in Israel!

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:56 am

Ruchel wrote:

It's only in Israel!

I never, ever heard that. Source?

StrawberrySmoothie

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:58 am

Ruchel wrote:

It's only in Israel!

Don't pasken. I live Chu"l and have always done this and seen it done by others as well.

OP these are questions for your LOR, not imamother.

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:58 am

My dh said of course it's only in Israel, he remembers learning this. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:59 am

Ruchel wrote:

My dh said of course it's only in Israel. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

I said a source, not what people you know do. They probably don't want to spoil their fancy houses.

GetReal

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 11:59 am

It's called a zecher l'churban and originates in the Gemara Bava Basra 60b.

"[When] one paints or plasters his home, [he] leaves a small area unpainted or unplastered. How much? Rabbi Yosef said, an amah by an amah [a cubit square] and Rabbi Chisda adds, by the door."

It's also brought in the Rambam (Taaniyot 5:12) and the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 560).

"From when the Beit Hamikdash was destroyed, the sages of that generation established that that one should never build a building whose walls are decorated with ornate designs like the palaces of kings. Instead, one should cover the walls of one's home with mortar and paint over them with lime, leaving a space one cubit square opposite the doorway that is unpainted. If, however, a person buys a dwelling whose walls have been decorated, it may remain as is; he is not obligated to scrape [the designs] from the walls."

The Mishneh Berurah and others bring different reasons why this practice is not fully observed nowadays. However, the Mishneh Berurah concludes that these reasons are not strong ones, and that space should be left unpainted.

joy613

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:00 pm

I never heard that it's only in Israel either.
Just because people don't do other places, doesn't mean that they're not supposed to.

StrawberrySmoothie

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:01 pm

Ruchel wrote:

My dh said of course it's only in Israel, he remembers learning this. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

We all need to remember the chorbon. Not just those living in modern day Israel.

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:02 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

My dh said of course it's only in Israel. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

I said a source, not what people you know do. They probably don't want to spoil their fancy houses.

You mean those who are shtark charedi and live in holes too? at least they're not difficult if they see that as fancy!

As I wrote, but you didn't wear your glasses, I asked my husband, not the community where I grew up.

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:02 pm

I just checked it up in the KSA and it's siman 126 - it doesn't say anything at all about EY or chul.

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:05 pm

I don't let Imamother pasken for me. The way dh learned is fine for me.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:06 pm

Ruchel wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

My dh said of course it's only in Israel. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

I said a source, not what people you know do. They probably don't want to spoil their fancy houses.

Have they done their own homes, or moved into one already done?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:07 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I don't let Imamother pasken for me. The way dh learned is fine for me.

If he has a source. If he is relying on memory and halachic sources seem to disagree, the responsible thing to do would be to re-check it up.

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:09 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

My dh said of course it's only in Israel. He has never ever heard of doing that anywhere else.

I said a source, not what people you know do. They probably don't want to spoil their fancy houses.

Have they done their own homes, or moved into one already done?

There are all cases.

Quote:

If he has a source. If he is relying on memory and halachic sources seem to disagree, the responsible thing to do would be to re-check it up.

Forgetting something happens, but remembering "only in Israel" when it's not a criterion would be very weird... and even weirder that life experience fits that bad memory...

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:13 pm

So if he could give us a source, I'd be much obliged. I like knowing who says what in many areas of halacha.

There are some takanos to remember the churban that are specific to locale, like instrumental music at chassunos. But not things like breaking the glass by a chuppa. It's not unheard of to mix up two different inyanim which have the same reasoning behind them.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:15 pm

http://www.thejewisheye.com/rev_hat79.html -- fascinating. Basically says that there is very little justification for not doing it in Chu"l.

If you want sources: http://www.dafyomi.co.il/bbasr.....0.htm

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 10 2010, 12:15 pm

I'll ask him if he has the right books to check.

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