Is cleaning help a luxury?

YALT

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 5:38 pm

Well, since I seem to be the example, let me tell you a BIT of what goes on here.
DH needs to be on his way to work at 8:00am to be on time. He gets back home anywhere between 8:15-8:30pm. His "lunch break" consists of 30 minutes, which includes time to punch in/out, get out of customer's sight, & his bathroom break. So his lunch needs to be devoured in 15 minutes.
8:30 he comes home, eats supper, if there's any important messages, etc.. and relaxes for a few minutes.
at about 9:30-10:00 we clear up from supper, wash dishes together (that's our "time together")
When he has shiurim, he runs out by 8:30/8:45 after a quick supper.

Normally, I can cope on minimal sleep. (compared to most) But DH can't. He needs a full 8 hours of sleep. Which he doesn't get.
Truth be told, I am not the kind of person that can sit there and clean my house all day. I know I can do a bit more, but I need some time to relax. My kids can be put to bed any time from 6:30 and on, yet I'll be lucky if they're asleep by 9:00. And they wake up before the roosters. So it's not like I can put them in at 6:30 and then I have a few hrs to myslef b4 DH comes home. nope. bec. they keep running in/out, jumping on the beds, blaming each other, crying that their not tired, etc. When he comes home, I'm finished! I normally eat supper quickly and then go straight into bed, sleep for a bit and then get up to clear up supper. And then straight back into bed. But I get up early with the kids, but can't take my kids' constant "but ma" I feel like it's happening nonstop all day. not a ½ hr passes without me having a kid complaining about something. I know I'm not the best parent, but I hardly think I'm from the worst.

Erev Shabbos at times DH comes home less than 2 hrs before shabbos. He does his ironing, shoe polishing, and a few other things, and then showers & dresses. "few other things" means depending what needs to be done. bathing kids, straightening up, pick up last minute things from store,
Instead of all that, he can mop my floor. But then who will do that stuff? I can't tell shabbos to wait a few more hours. And I can't no matter how hard I've tried, do more on Thursdays. It just doesn't happen.

I bless you that you should continue to not need anything which you view as a luxury, but at the same time, as greedy as it sounds, I bless myself that I should have all the things I want AND need, to the point that I should not need to figure out what is a luxury and what is a neccessity.
And I bless that to every one!

gold21

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 7:45 pm

Luxuries: shaitel, car, cleaning help, taking a vacation, more than 2 skirts, more than 2 tops, more than 2 pairs of underwear, serving chicken or meat, serving fresh fruit, plastic plates, plastic cups, plastic cutlery, store-bought bread, store-bought cookies, store-bought challah, store-bought chumus, store-bought water, jewelry.......please feel free to add your own.

Necessities: 2 outfits, 2 pairs of underwear, enough food to keep you full, enough water to keep your thirst quenched, a place to live.

Not everything is so clear cut. Anybody who would like to volunteer to remove all luxuries from their lifestyle, please go ahead. Otherwise, let us assume that we all have some luxuries in our lives that have become necessities. The lines are blurred. What you consider a luxury may be someone else's necessity.

bluebird

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 8:00 pm

I've been thinking about this thread and I don't think that classifying things as luxuries OR necessities works for me. To me, a luxury is something that you absolutely DON'T need at all. I don't need a private yacht, for example. When times get tough, luxuries are things that can clearly go. I can forgo buying books and use the library instead. I can forgo a chocolate bar that I'm craving.

In between luxury and necessity are things that are NOT decadent or true luxuries, but that I could forgo if the funds for them are critically needed elsewhere. They're negotiable.

If I put myself in YALT's shoes (again, that's ME in her situation, not YALT in her situation), a cleaning lady would be a strong want but not a luxury. It would not make the first cut when times get tough, but it would be something that I would forgo if I were having trouble eating, or cut back on or find an alternative to if I could barely afford it.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 8:22 pm

I absolutely agree with lifesgreat. For many people, this can be the last straw. Keeping a clean home can be very overwhelming for someone who is easily stressed, especially if she already has a lot on her plate- taking care of kids, working outside the home, and whatever else people have going on in their lives. Some women have children with special needs. Some women have shalom bayis problems that take lots of emotional energy to deal with. Some women feel terrible physically for months postpartum.

I can think of many, many cases where cleaning help is an absolute necessity. If you have to ask yourself, you probably can live without it. For you, it's a luxury. But don't be so quick to decide that it's a luxury for most. If doing without would cost them their emotional health and that of their family, their shalom bayis, and possibly their physical health as well- luxury it is not.

morah

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 9:04 pm

Is it a luxury? Yes in the sense that it doesn't fall into food/shelter/clothing. But then again, you could say the same thing about electricity. Heck, if you're posting here, you have a computer, which you could also say is a luxury, after all your mother and grandmother did just fine without computers over the last few decades, and that too does not fit in to food/shelter/clothing.

Like many have said, it depends on the person. Let's use the example of a car. It's easy to say a car is a luxury if you live in, say, New York City. But for someone living elsewhere, it could be a necessity. It could well be the only way this person could get to their job, the very job which, as it happens, pays for that person's necessities. It would be rather unfair to say that in such a situation the car is a luxury. Now, just because they need a car, does not mean they need a BMW. I can't think of a single situation in which a BMW would be a necessity the way that a car in general can be a necessity for some.

Same thing with cleaning ladies (and yes, I have once a weekly help for 4 hours). It can be a necessity for some people. Now, I doubt full-time help could ever be construed as a necessity (unless we're dealing with some really big disability) but I don't see why it's so inconceivable to suggest that minimal help that simply holds the house together might be a necessity for some, especially for working parents.

Grandmama

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 9:44 pm

YALT wrote:

Since everyone seems to be writing "FACTS", let me explain to you what is the difference between fact and opinion.

A fact is something that is true or can be proven.
An opinion is your feelings or how someone else feels about a particular topic.

Some women are capable to cope without cleaning help.
Some women are able to cope without, but they will be MORE overwhelmed than had they had the extra help.
Some women are not able to cope without cleaning help whatsoever.
Some women have their facts and opinions mixed up.

Does that make "cleaning help = need or want?" - a matter of fact? or opinion?

I believe it is a matter of opinion, and only each individual can answer that for herself. But she does need to be honest with herself.

Now let me tell you what IS a fact.
When I mop my floor, I get allergies.
The allergies turn into asthma.
Asthma means Ineed to go onto meds.
Allergies puts me out of commission.
Copay for meds is $30.

Now add that all together:
I have 2 choices:
a) Sunday: wash floor Sunday. allergies start. can't deal with kids by evening.
Monday: still can't cope with kids. but now asthma has kicked in. go to dr. start meds.
Tuesday: getting better.
Wednesday - ready to get up & go again. But my house & kids are disaster after being neglected for 2 days. Cost out of pocket: $20 (dr) + $30 (copay)
But my floor was washed 3 days ago.

b) Get a cleaning lady to wash my floors for me. They don't come for less than 3 hours, so I spend $30
Rest of week, I can deal with kids, and regular cleanup.
Cost out of pocket: $30

Now, please give me your OPINION - is it a FACT that cleaning help is a WANT? Or is it an OPINION?

And by the way, there must be atleast 5 threads like this.

Did you ever consider doing your floors with plain hot water? Or with a bit of natural cleansing products that would not trigger asthma? Like Shaklee products, or melaleuca, or other natural products?
I would not bring anything into my home that makes me sneeze, which many products do.
Floors are quite clean with plain hot water, I would use a bit of cleanser only if there is a necessary spot, or maybe once a month if need be. Almost every surface becomes clean with a little hot water, and I only use unscented natural cleansers and extras when they are really needed. Less is more.

saw50st8

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 10:07 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Often its a cultural mindset. Like South Africans mentioned (dont know if thats true or not). You can change that. Its rare that someone has a mental breakdown because their house isn't clean.

That's not to say getting cleaning help isn't valuable. But If you were asking for a scholarship and had no extenuating circumstances, then I would be upset if you spent $15-200/month on cleaning help.

morah

Wed, Aug 25 2010, 10:34 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

morah wrote:

I don't think you can compare a computer to cleaning help for some.

But that is exactly my point. Everything we have above and beyond bread, water, a roof, an outfit and a pair of shoes is technically a luxury. Just the fact that each and everyone of us is sitting on a computer posting online shows that we have a certain "luxury"- that of a computer. And a computer is a rather expensive piece of equipment. Yet I think we could all justify our owning computers as somehow a necessity, and I bet not everyone here could even say it's for work. Same thing with cleaning help. If your definition of "luxury" is anything that doesn't fall into one of the 3 categories for basic survival, then yes, cleaning help is a luxury. But what a lot of people here are saying (and I totally agree, as I myself am in this category) is that for certain people in certain situations, cleaning help truly is necessary, and although you would presumably find a way to do without it should it ever come down to a choice between cleaning lady and food, that does not make it unnecessary. Veggies are necessary too, but plenty of poor people forgo them in favor of McDonalds or whatever so that they can afford to eat.

It also really grates on me when people complain about scholarship families that have cleaning help. Admittedly, I am not up to that stage of life yet, but I know a little bit of basic arithmetic. If someone is paying what I am for cleaning help, then they are spending under $1500/year. Remove the cleaning lady, and save the $1500- now what? Will that money go to the school? Doubtful. It will probably go toward a vacation or something. But even if it did, spread out across all those who pay full tuition (let's say 50 families), you then reduce your payment by a whopping 30 bucks. And that's assuming that tuition assistance is covered entirely by tuition revenues, which we all know it isn't. Basically, wagging our fingers at families with cleaning ladies is not going to solve the tuition crisis.

saw50st8

Thu, Aug 26 2010, 6:37 am

morah wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

morah wrote:

I don't think you can compare a computer to cleaning help for some.

Wow where to start.

First, $1500/year is a significant amount of money. You aren't talking about $100 to splurge on pizza 4X a year (like Erev pesach or something). Did you hear about 2 schools in Lakewood that closed? If every year people paid their extra $1500 to the school, perhaps they could have stayed open. Rabbeim could have been paid on time.

Second, its not going to go to the school? That's a horrible attitude that needs to be deal with. If you are on scholarship and have extra money it SHOULD go to the school. Why are you taking charity that you don't need? Unfortunately, its this attitude that is plagueing Jewish schools. When times are bad it shows - rich people can't contribute as much and all those years of people taking advantage end up collapsing the system.

I truly wonder if people value a Jewish education enough to get rid of their luxuries. Would you give up your cleaning help to send your kids to Yeshiva? People don't have to make that choice now, but they should.