America's Next Top Model - modern orthodox jew contestant

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zipporah

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 6:13 am

ora_43 wrote:

I think there are two issues: 1. is it accurate for someone working as a model to describe themselves as "modern orthodox," and 2. if not, is it moral to use that description?

I'm torn on the first. At first I thought, why not? There are plenty of people who consider themselves MO and still wear revealing clothing, including bikinis at the beach. It's not something MO rabbis accept, but there are some people who do it, and they aren't considered to have removed themselves from the community.

But now I'm thinking there is a difference. Not because a modeling contest is more public, or because a bra is somehow different than a bikini. To me, the difference is in the permanence of it, in choosing to build a full-time career on something assur, and not just doing something assur once in a while.

To make the mandatory comparison to business fraud, it's like how if an MO businessman cheated a client while working in what could have been a halachically OK job I'd still consider him MO, but if he chose a career in car theft, I would think "MO" is no longer an accurate description of his religious practice.

As for the second - I still don't understand how people think it's OK to describe oneself as part of a group while going against that group's beliefs, all in public. Nobody answered my questions earlier so I'll try again - if it's fine for someone to describe herself as MO while doing things most MO people would see as well outside normative observance, is it fine for me to describe myself as, for example, a Palestinian? (hey, I live in "Palestine," why not?) And then to go on TV and talk about how I'm a Palestinian and I support the IDF?

There is a difference between Orthopraxy and Orthodoxy. The first is what you do and the second is what you believe (or say you believe, in light of the fact that only Hashem knows what you truly believe). Orthodox Judaism has no central authority to judge who is or isn't a member. Why is a woman who covers her hair, keeps kosher, is shomer mitzvot but calls herself Conservative not included in the family of Orthodox Judaism? She says she isn't. Why aren't there more Reform shuls in Israel? Israeli mindsets are pro-Orthodoxy but not Orthopraxy. You are who you say you are... unless we're going to have a Jewish version of the inquisition.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:00 am

I just rememberd there is an Israeli model who considred herself Dati so I guess she's MO. She won't model lingeri or swimsuits, but presents herself as frum. There was a lot of contraversy around this woman as well.
Her name is Chava something. I need to leave work soon so I don't know if I'll have the time to google her.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:08 am

Yes and there is another one who ended up posing in a wet but kinda covering tee shirt. I can't remember name.

ora_43

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:27 am

zipporah wrote:

I haven't met anyone who defines orthodoxy as totally separate from orthopraxy (in real life, that is). Are you saying that someone who doesn't keep shabbat or kashrut should be called orthodox if they believe that traditional Judaism is the right way and Hashem wants us to keep mitzvot?

In Israel, a person like that would be called "masorti" or even "chiloni." There are standards for calling someone "dati" that go beyond just what they say they're thinking.

There aren't Reform shuls in Israel because the mentality here is that people don't feel the need to be considered (/think of themselves as) religiously observant if they aren't. And because Reform is very much based in American, not Israeli, values. I don't see your point.

I also don't see how you got from "words mean things" to "inquisition." Of course nobody's going to go around torturing and murdering people over this.

Do you think it would be fine for me to portray myself as Palestinian? Or an easier one - would it be fine if I claimed to be hareidi? Like if I were to come on this site and instead of saying "my rabbi holds by heter mechira," I said, "I'm hareidi and my rabbi holds by heter mechira" (without mentioning that while I consider myself hareidi, nobody else would) - would that be OK?

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:37 am

In some places of the world, especially before but still today, Orthodox = Orthodox minded.

I'm not familiar with anyone remotely shomer mitzvos calling himself non Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox, but here non Orthodox shuls are a farce/social club even for those who attend.

sequoia

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:46 am

Ruchel wrote:

I'm not familiar with anyone remotely shomer mitzvos calling himself non Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox, but here non Orthodox shuls are a farce/social club even for those who attend.

Here things are different. I am familiar with MANY people who are more than remotely shomer mitzvot -- who ARE shomer mitzvot -- and who do not describe themselves as Orthodox. Because they aren't Orthodox. They're Conservative. Conservative Jews who keep shabbos, kashrus, and TH. And who are active in their Conservative congregations.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:51 am

sequoia wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I'm not familiar with anyone remotely shomer mitzvos calling himself non Orthodox as opposed to Orthodox, but here non Orthodox shuls are a farce/social club even for those who attend.

I'm not familiar with someone SM being by choice in a non Orthodox shul, barring very special reasons like (IRL example) they accept their mentally disabled son as minyan (lo alenu).

sequoia

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:57 am

Okay, this is going to be shocking.

But there are people in the world whom you haven't met.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:01 am

And it changes my culture or experience how?

sequoia

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:02 am

It doesn't Smile

It's just different in other parts of the world, so you can't say, "this doesn't exist b/c I haven't personally met anyone like that."

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:06 am

I'm the first to say different cultures are different... maybe it's a language block...

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:22 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I'm going to backtrack on a chilul Hashem done in private. I have to check back on it, but I believe I learned that it's an issue.

Anyway, this was eye opening for me:
http://www.nishma.org/articles.....1.htm

According to my husband, the kaf hachayim holds a chilul Hashem can be done in private. I was not wrong.

The rambam talks about needing a minyan for it to be considered a chilul Hashem b'RABIM.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:23 am

Nomie wrote:

the only reason why we say it's a "chilul Hashem" is b/c we can imagine what a kiddush Hashem it would have been had she refused to break Shabbos for the show. What a bold statement that would have been for the entire world to see. Opportunity missed.

If we want young Jewish women to know what it means to be young, observant, cool, happy, and proud of who we are, then it's on us to model that for them.

That's not true.
Leaving the Shabbos issue aside, it's a chilul Hashem for her to be prancing around in her underwear.

amother

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:33 am

I feel bad for her that she is being picked on. She seems like a great girl. As far as judaism, doing what she knows to her level and cares too. At least she is doing this to start up a career and not just to win some $$$ like various degrees of types of orthodox jews have done on other shows. I can list off many really very orthodox jews who make headlines in the news way worse than girl in skimpy trying to start untzius career.

louche

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:44 am

sequoia wrote:

I am familiar with MANY people who are more than remotely shomer mitzvot -- who ARE shomer mitzvot -- and who do not describe themselves as Orthodox. Because they aren't Orthodox. They're Conservative. Conservative Jews who keep shabbos, kashrus, and TH. And who are active in their Conservative congregations.

Quite so. I have friends who are staunchly Conservative, I mean as in JTS, rah,rah,rah, whose overall observance is indistinguishable from MO. They cover their hair. They wear skirts. They daven daily. They make brachot, and bench, and use timers on Shabbat, and don't carry without an eruv. What makes them Conservative is that they subscribe to the Conservative philosophy vis a vis halacha as opposed to the Orthodox one.

Which is not to say that this is typical of all Conservative people. Like Orthodoxy, Conservative Judaism covers a spectrum from right to left, with those on the left being virtually indistinguishable from Reform and the vast majority somewhere in between.

louche

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 9:59 am

Ruchel wrote:

I'm the first to say different cultures are different... maybe it's a language block...

Nonsense. Language has nothing to do with it. You, Ruchel, are familiar with Judaism as she is practiced by various groups in Europe. You know nothing of the US, which is almost as different from Europe as China is from the Middle East. That's nothing to be ashamed of; most Americans know nothing about Judaism as she is practiced in Europe. Heck, many of us know nothing about Judaism as she is practiced in Detroit. The difference between us is that we admit to our ignorance.

Your perennial assertions that any practice or philosophy that you personally have not met does not exist , grow beyond tiresome and are coming perilously close to "obnoxious". Grow up, already.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 10:01 am

Quote:

You know nothing of the US

I only know what I read of it and what I saw there, hence "I'm not familiar.

Quote:

Your perennial assertions that any practice or philosophy that you personally have not met does not exist

Indeed it seems to be a language block.

Feel free to ignore my obnoxious comments. In the mean time I'm not frightened of people over the internet, so yeah.

louche

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

Doing something wrong is less objectionable if one is doing it as a career than if one does it once to win a prize? By extension of your reasoning, it is less objectionable for a person to eat tref on a continuing basis because he's interning in a tref catering business than it would be for him to eat tref once on a TV reality show. The logic escapes me.

sequoia

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 10:12 am

Ruchel, I mean, sincerely, it does sound different than you intend it. When you say, "I'm not familiar with" it comes across like "I don't believe it exists." It's one of those things that you just have to feel.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 21 2010, 10:17 am

sequoia wrote:

Really? Davka I meant just that I am not familiar... straight translation from French... so how do you say that you are not familiar with something, without saying it can't exist anywhere?

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